Why isn't the Freedom Plate DIR compliant?

[RJP]

The fact that Halcyon wings don't fit on it is a non-issue. After eight years in the GUE community, and taking a number of classes, I have YET to see an instructor reject a piece of equipment because it wasn't Halcyon. It's a perception that is out there, but it just isn't true.

The fact that Halcyon wings don't fit is an issue for me when it comes to BUYING one... as I own three Halcyon wings.

I wasn't suggesting that any individuals would reject endorsing a product that doesn't say Halcyon on it... but I would think it's easy to see that the owner of GUE and Halcyon might not love the idea.

 

[nimoh]

In marketing, nothing with the word "all" in it is well-defined.

:d

touché

 

[Akimbo]

…There are, however, many plates out there that go equally well in singles, doubles, and argon and stages...

I suppose that is where our experiences diverge. I find all the virtually identical doubles plates on the market to be really mediocre for doubles and absolutely terrible for singles. As for suit inflation, I see no reason not to back mount it to cylinders.

 

[nimoh]

I suppose that is where our experiences diverge. I find all the virtually identical doubles plates on the market to be really mediocre for doubles and absolutely terrible for singles. As for suit inflation, I see no reason not to back mount it to cylinders.

I'm a little curious. How could typical backplates be better for doubles?

and, why are they so absolutely terrible for singles? Does the freedom plate address/solve these issues?

 

[danvolker]

A little history.

If it wasn't for the DIR movement the back plate as we know it today would not be in mainstream use. I say "mainstream" in the context of the internet and people who frequent the boards. Anybody who has hung out on any scuba related message boards in the last 12 years probably knows what a BP/W is regardless whether they use one or not. People who just go into their LDS and are oblivious to BP/W because the LDS doesn't carry them and the customer never goes on the internet is living in the overall mainstream, yes, but they and their LDS's are also in a parallel universe.

Because the DIR movement was instrumental in bringing the BP/W out of the cave and wrecks and into our mainstream, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that possibly most BP/W users are either fully certified DIR or at least dive a loose DIR configuration and follow the rules as closely as they know how.
I started using conventional plates this way and did a few years of tech diving myself through TDI, although I never took fundies.

The Freedom plate has it's roots from somewhere else. It is drawn from the old school of the back pack. I developed the modern version 10 years ago after I decided I didn't want to do tech diving anymore but wanted a plate that was more comfortable than what I was using, which was an OMS plate (which I modified BTW).
So from that the Freedom Plate was born but it never was intended to be a tech plate. It was just supposed to be a simple single tank plate but do the job very well.

From that standpoint I decided to market it to people who knew what plates are, but I hit a roadblock exactly with the issues that are being discussed in this thread, can't use doubles, can't use argon, blah, blah.
The vintage divers don't want it because it's not "vintage" enough.
The LDS's - forget it, remember they are in a parallel universe.
So far the ones that use it most are recreational single tank jacket BC converts who will never dive doubles and never use argon bottles

But there still is a good chunk of people who are getting into BP/W who look to you guys (DIR) to see what you use and why.
So for me to break into the DIR market would be huge, because with that endorsement it would mean it could be used anywhere for anything by anybody.
After all, if it wasn't for DIR the rest of us would still be using jackets.
People need to remember that.

I would suggest that there are many divers that enjoy and can benefit greatly from DIR ideas and skills, who will absolutely NEVER use double tanks. This is in fact, the majority of divers.
GUE training would actually be a very good thing for this same large population group, but the GUE's need to realize that double tanks are a distinct disadvantage in many settings. Many people are far more likely to injure their backs severely, from the weight of the doubles, than they would be likely to be at a risk underwater where the doubles would make them safer than with a single tank. Most diving is in shallower than 100 feet, and most charter boats are well set up for single tanks, and poorly set up for storing or gearing up for doubles. Most charter boats cater to single tank divers, and to dive duration's for single tanks...diving the doubles creates far more problems than they solve for most divers. The doubles also take much of the ease and fun/simplicity out of diving......recreational diving.....Now if I want to dive tech...deep...or cave... I am no longer in the realm of the masses this thread is relevant to...this is about the smartness of DIR ideas, for recreational divers...including those that would like the skill levels GUE could bring them....
It would be my guess that the Freedom Plate would be fine for this...maybe even nicer than the H plates I use
So far I have never used a Freedom plate, or seen more than the photos..but from what I have seen, and from knowing as many GUE instructors as I know....as long as they tell the Instructor that they WILL NOT be getting into diving doubles, I don't see any flak from the GUE Instructors.....Bob Sherwood and Errol K even let me use my big DiveR Freedive fins in my Fundies class...and it was me that decided that after doing reverse kicks for hour after hour, that freedive fins were a liability for this....but the instructor will let you prove your gear is up to the challenge, if that is what you want

 

[TSandM]

What's wrong with backplates for single tanks? It's all I've dived for eight years (and yes, I own several different plates) and I love them! We've sold a bunch to students who have had an opportunity to try them in the pool, and IMMEDIATELY conclude that they like that better than the jacket they were diving before.

Dan, I TOTALLY agree with you that the number of people who are never going to dive doubles is HUGE compared with the ones who ever will . . . and that many of the ideas of GUE diving would really improve the diving experience for those people (which is why we try to incorporate as much as we can in our teaching). But GUE as an organization has a purpose, and its purpose is to train divers who can participate in conservation and exploration projects, many of which involve depth or overheads. Therefore, having an equipment configuration which moves easily into those arenas is a core value. I agree with you that most instructors, confronted with a student who owns a Freedom Plate and who voices no intention of moving to doubles, would allow the plate without much comment.

But that's not what Eric wants. He wants the plate endorsed and recommended by GUE/GUE instructors, and it is not going to happen unless or until it permits moving into more complex diving. You have to understand the organization's purpose to see why this is true -- it has nothing to do with dogma or snobbery, it has to do with why GUE exists, in the minds of the people who created and who run it.

 

[Akimbo]

Keep in mind; I am a very critical guy in the functional design area.

I'm a little curious. How could typical backplates be better for doubles?...

Restating to make sure I understand is the question: Why do I believe that typical backplates are better for doubles than singles?

Because they fit tightly on doubles without adding unnecessary space between you and the tanks. However, they are no more comfortable than 1950s era straps attached directly to tank bands. Cylinders and doubles plates are flat on the vertical plane, my body isn’t flat on any plane.

What's wrong with backplates for single tanks?...

and

…and, why are they so absolutely terrible for singles? Does the freedom plate address/solve these issues?

Same fit comments except they push the cylinder farther away from your back at the top than necessary on singles. The Freedom plate uses compound curves to contour to your back. It also is very close to the back at the top and stands the cylinder off at the bottom at about 3° so the plate nestles into your lower back, which helps to distribute the weight on my body. Without that, the cylinders hit my butt and there is a gap between the backplate and my lower spine.

Both straps of the Freedom Plate harness connect to the plate at the center top. I find the spread of the shoulder straps on typical plates required to accommodate the doubles bolt channel/trough causes them to slide off my shoulder easier. That characteristic also shifts the weight of the tanks farther outboard causing more stress on my shoulders.

I like to set my Freedom Plate up so that the lower straps slide through the lower guides on the plate. This allows easily pulling slack on the shoulders to don and doff and tightening shoulder straps by pulling the belly-band tight. The parallel slot spacing on typical plates makes it more difficult, but not impossible.

The lower webbing slots on the Freedom Plate are also not parallel. The angles allows stiff webbing to lay flatter as it makes the sweep through the plate, which I find much more comfortable on deck and in the water.

I can’t think of any device made to distribute weight over the back and shoulders made from what is basically a flat sheet of metal plate.

 

[undrwater]

The HOG 32 lb wing fits the plate like it was made for it. I love mine. My other plates are now reserved for students and doubles only. If I'm diving single tank I'm using my freedom contour, HOG wing, and basic harness. Mine has a red one. As for finding webbing I can get all you want in black, red, blue, green, yellow, and pink. And supply the hardware.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

I was able to find and put together all the stuff I needed. I would argue the major market of scuba divers could not, or would not want to go to the trouble.

Put together the whole "system" including the Wing and the Harness, and you have something marketable that folks looking to simplify their rig (another marketing point) can sink their teeth into. The Freedom BCD?

 

[mathauck0814]

Eric - perhaps the obvious question that I haven't seen answered is why you don't sign up for a GUE Fundamentals course and show up in your plate? Seems that would give you the best opportunity to demonstrate its utility (at least for a rec pass). At the end of your course you'll have either satisfied your instructor that the plate meets the requirements or he'll have situationally shown you why it's an inappropriate choice for that type of diving. Either way, seems more empirical than scubaboard's opinion.

Personally, I think your plate is a nice product for people who do recreational single tank diving. I don't think I'd prefer having separate plates for singles/doubles (that's one major point of the point of the system, imo). Rigid thinking? Maybe. But solutions tend to stick where there's an actual problem requiring them. I'm not sure I see a problem here in "DIR" diving that needs solving.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I think you're barking up the wrong tree entirely. At minimum, you ougthta stop casting aspirtions at people with phrases like "turn up their nose" or "too rigid" or "dogma." From a marketing standpoint, you're the one being "too rigid" and the one who is "turning up their nose" at the preference of people who you seem to think are your customers. Smart marketing starts with considering who is your target audience, within the total universe, that has a need that your product meet, and then delivering your product to that target audience. Poor marketing starts with someone having a product in hand, who then gets confused/mad/frustrated that it doesn't appeal to 100% of potential buyers.

As you said, single-tank recreational divers outnumber GUE/Tech/Doubles divers 100 to 1 --- so why on earth are you worried about getting your product to appeal to the 1 at the expense of the 100. From a marketing perspective you've got a product that is differentiated entirely. From a positioning/target market perspective you've got a marketer's dream: A product that specifically and uniquely meets the need of a large segment of the audience. However you're making the classic marketing-amature mistake of trying to create a product that appeals to everyone. It's not possible. Even if it were possible, it's not desirable. (Hell, having the "GUE stamp of approval" would probably cost you more customers than you would gain given the disdain that many folks have for anything remotely DIR.

Think "un-cola" in this case. You've got the "un-plate" my friend! The Freedom Plate could be "the backplate for people who don't want the xxxxx of a backplate." (Whatever xxxxxxx may be, you've "freed" divers from that.) That's a much better positioning than being "a lesser backplate that is potentially appealing to a subset of people who don't really like my product, and aready own several competitve products, but damn-it, I'm sure I can convince them they have an occasional need for mine."

Good question, I don't know.
Probably because DIR is the one who brought the BP/W into mainstream use so therefore if they like it then it would somehow validate what I'm doing.
But you're right, why should I bother?
I should be happy with those that are GUE trained that are intrigued by the plate and maybe even use one.
I know there are a few out there.

Aim for the target and quit getting sidetracked.

Thank you for your post.