Why I have decided to stop shopping for ANYTHING at the LDS

[Tom R]

There's a nearby shop I no longer get fills from because they will usually underfill. Last time I went to pick up tanks after leaving overnight, I specifically asked them if it was topped off. Yes, he said. Wrong answer. It's been a long time. I don't underpay them.

I have this problem all the time with customers that come in after a charter or dive saying they only got 2800 psi in 3000 tank, even with a sign on the door when leaving and another on the compressor shed saying to check your tanks before leaving as well as your mix. I even have a guage ready for use, guess what only 10% of them do and I remember my OW instructor telling me to check my tanks everytime I pick them up.

Funniest thing is most people bring back the tanks with 700 - 1000 psi in them still on average and still feel the need to make the complaint.

Check your tanks before leaving the dive store it will make yours and your LDS life more easier.

 

[cornfed]

This Board is where I learned this term.. I am taking this comment to mean you have drank from the Cool-aid...

Yes I am a card holding GUE member but that has no bearing on my opinion in this matter.

Or you have an intrest in and LDS yourself..

Nope. Is it really that hard to believe that someone could be nothing more than a simple customer and not buy into the idea that a dive shop is out to screw you?

 

[rigdiver]

Thomas;
DiveRite did a study many years ago. They calculated initial cost, filters, maintenance, electricity, life of unit, etc.. Over eight years ago it "cost" over $3.00 U.S. to fill an 80 cu ft cylinder. Many things must be factored in to the equation that I don't see people discussing here. Heating and cooling the dive store, insurance/worman's comp, labor, advertising, etc..
Cost of an air fill has not changed in many years. Look at gasoline, electricity, taxes, food. Do a ratio and proportion and an air fill SHOULD be at least ten bucks.
I'm an EX-dive store owner and have three compressors in my garage. Take just this one expense and wrap your mind around this. One filter(yes just one) for my Bauer mariner 6.9 cu ft/minute comptessor costs $42.00. Now that expense alone is over ONE DOLLAR per fill.
When your LDS goes under get the online vendors to e-mail you an air fill. And, we haven't even touched on "cost"f nitrox or mixed gas.
Regards;
Bill Childers NAUI 5709L C.D./IANTD 1982

 

[Mike Veitch]

Do you people know that clothing stores also mark up their goods by 100-200%?

Shocking...:O

Lets start a www.rippedoffbygap.com and start complaing over there too...

Sheesh,these complaining threads are very tiring, in fact i am not going to read this or any other post about LDS complaining anymore!!!!

This is supposed to be a site to help others. If you want to whine put it in the "Whine and Cheeze" forum so people who want to read about Basic Scuba discussions don't have to stumble upon it!

Thanks for listening, rant over....

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It is a simple known fact that 95% of them overcharge for services, trips and gear.

Would you care to site the source of that "known fact" ???

I support my LDS's by buying air there and an occassional small item

Well, whether it's "known" or not, the fact is that selling air and accessories won't keep an LDS in business. Have you considered where you will get your air when he eventually decides to do something more profitable?

Perhaps you should ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MEL-DC Diver]

Yes, goods are marked up significantly by all retailers - that is the nature of the beast. There is a difference however, when you are talking about high up front costs. High up front costs are a disincentive in a cost-concious world of Wal-marts and Costcos. High volume and lower margins per item are the future. Someone earlier made the comparison to going for a round of golf - that is the key. One barely notices the incremental costs associated with their activity when compared to up front costs of gear in the thousands. If air fills cost more, ok.

A couple of shore dives still cost less than a golf outing. I dive mostly off boats and that is already an expensive proposition. Do you really think I am going to cringe if the price of air goes up a few bucks for something I am already spending a hundred bucks on? The most successful dive shop I know in Australia is focused solely on running their boats, doing air fills, and renting gear. There carry a minimum of inventory for retail and operate in a retail capacity primarily as a place to pick up a spare or a last-minute item. That works! That model won't work for every shop, but if you are relying on gear, you will not make it in the future.

 

[Rondo]

I blame manufacturer price fixing and territorial protection for "authorized dealers" for high prices at an LDS.

Then we find a "grey market" item for half the cost and wonder why.

Scubapro and their Max. 10% discount is a good example of the price fixing an LDS has to deal with,they actually threaten to pull the line if shops are caught offering a higher discount.

One of my shops actually got sick of this an dumped the line because they couldn't sell it beacause even with a large $1K package they could only give the 10%,basically only a tax break.

The cost issue is often more complex than simple greed by the shop

 

[Firefyter]

Thomas;
DiveRite did a study many years ago. They calculated initial cost, filters, maintenance, electricity, life of unit, etc.. Over eight years ago it "cost" over $3.00 U.S. to fill an 80 cu ft cylinder. Many things must be factored in to the equation that I don't see people discussing here. Heating and cooling the dive store, insurance/worman's comp, labor, advertising, etc..

As I responded to lamont, if air is the ONLY thing your selling, then you obviously have more costs associated with it. However, as part of an overall business model, it still doesn't add up to that much.

Cost of an air fill has not changed in many years. Look at gasoline, electricity, taxes, food. Do a ratio and proportion and an air fill SHOULD be at least ten bucks.

Food? How much can a compressor eat?

I'm an EX-dive store owner and have three compressors in my garage. Take just this one expense and wrap your mind around this. One filter(yes just one) for my Bauer mariner 6.9 cu ft/minute comptessor costs $42.00. Now that expense alone is over ONE DOLLAR per fill.

You only get 42 fills per filter? We get waaaaaay more than that. Either your math is way off, or your compressor was taking in a lot of dirty air.

When your LDS goes under get the online vendors to e-mail you an air fill.

This is the statement that starts most of these arguments, and it's a worthless argument. As long as there is a market for air, SOMEONE will fill that market. I don't have an LDS within 75 miles of me, and I don't need one. I already fill my own tanks, so I'm pretty aware of the costs.

And, we haven't even touched on "cost"f nitrox or mixed gas.
Regards;
Bill Childers NAUI 5709L C.D./IANTD 1982

I agree, we were only talking about "air". However, last time I checked, the LDS's charged more for nitrox and blended gases than regular air.

 

[WaterWayne]

Minimal ranting, maximum analysis -- I like it. Here are my two cents:

Local business: I seem to be in the slight majority in that I'll support my LDS by paying a bit more than shopping online. In return, I get info through conversation that I couldn't get online. Incidentally, I'm able to visit ScubaToys in person, and I can tell you that their brick-and-mortar operation delivers that same level of personal experience, such as passing on other customers' feedback. Another LDS was kind enough to advise me of local conditions when I inquired about diving a new-to-me site. They also advised me about safety gear, and I followed their suggestions in making my purchase on the spot. I didn't bother to take their suggestions and research prices online.

Satisfaction: However, I seem to be in the minority because of the four LDS's I've patronized, in two cities, three of them gave me good service and reasonable prices. In the shop through which I certified, and bought my entire first kit, the owner never upsold me. In fact, I asked him for a comparison of the "Chevrolet" and "Cadillac" lines (he liked my phrasing), which he knowledgeably and fairly provided. I ended up buying "Pontiac" in most cases, which was a win-win for us both.

Classes: Training materials do cost much more than a ream of copy paper and toner, and/or a bundle of blank DVDs, as Damselfish pointed out. (I'm in the technical training profession.) You get what you pay for: I took my AOW course at a discount arranged by a local scuba club. That shop provided a contract, non-staff instructor who seized the opportunity to relay war stories. Then they double-credited a single dive as being both a deep dive (at 60' plus one inch) and a boat dive. Not coincidentally, that shop is the only one of the four in my experience with whom I won't deal again. Their selection is limited, and their clerks seem to be competing in a "Funniest Comedian" contest.

Role of dive clubs: I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned local organizations. One local dive club is affiliated with a particular dive shop. While that arrangement has the potential to just market the shop, the club officers do a good job of balancing and even controlling the shop owner's input. The shop has more-or-less guaranteed business. The club members have a reliable source that's under constant, direct, peer review. That's a win-win situation. Here's an idea that perhaps a club might use: survey club members yearly and pick a shop to support, based on ongoing feedback. Make awards and recognize that shop, and inspire other shops to compete with service.

Air fills: I like the idea of a co-op arrangement. Does anybody have direct experience with this? Are there any dive clubs that are doing this?

Thanks for letting me participate in this good discussion!

--Wayne

 

[friscuba]

oops