Why I have decided to stop shopping for ANYTHING at the LDS

[friscuba]

You can purchase a small compressor for a little less than $3K. It comes with the break in oil (first 12 hours) and the second set of oil. It has a 5 hp electric motor, which costs about 50 cents an hour in electricity to run. The ad says it can fill 3-AL80's an hour. Just during the break in period, you get 36 fills while spending $6 on electricity.

Other than the initial cost of the compressor, it is cheap to fill yourself. If you, and say three of your diving friends chip in $800 apiece, you can buy and run this thing through about 2,000 fills. That works out to about $1.50 a fill.

I don't think as an LDS owner that you can justify charging $600 for a BC that can be had from LP for $375 and then expect me to pay those kinds of mark ups while kissing your ring in thanks because you are overcharging me for air, as well.

If the LDS doesn't fix their business model, they will go away and I will pump my own air.

Any shop that has a 3000 buck compressor that can charge 3 tanks an hour would never be able to supply anyone with airfills.

Let's say they've have a class of 6, an instructor and a DM. That's 16 tanks. They'd have to run the compressor for 5 hours just to fill those tanks. They wouldn't have time to fill any rental tanks. If they had no classes going, it would still take ALL day just to fill tanks for 8-10 rental customers.

Most shops that I've seen have 10-20K at a minimum into their compressors unless they are lucky to find a decent compressor from some other shop that went out of business.

Even if they somehow make 2 bucks a fill, that'd take a heck of a lot of fills to recover their initial expenses. The shop I used to visit back in Oregon MAY have rented or filled 25-40 customer tanks a week. At 50-80 bucks a week to pay off their compressor, not to mention employees, I'm sure their compressor was a HUGE money maker - NOT.

I worked for a busy shop in Hawaii, part of my duties was filling tanks. 26,000 buck compressor, and they still probably only filled maybe 15-40 private tanks or rental tanks in a day. The rest all went for their charters so they don't really count. Their compressor probably broke down 3 times a year. Cost a bunch of money to maintain. You think they raked in profits off their compressors?

There's a lot more to the cost of an airfill than people think.

later,

 

[horsemen]

[Thing is ... that $3 air fill may have cost the LDS upwards of $40 when you add up the cost of the fill station, banks, electricity, annual maintenance, taxes, and overhead. And that class you paid $90 for may have cost the LDS upwards of $250 per student when you add up the cost of classroom space, materials, equipment, staff, pool, gear, insurance, and transport.

hhmmm my class was a lot diff we had to buy our books $65 rent our gear $150 for 2 pool sessions and 2 days of ow diving and then tuition was $200 i wish i would have only paid $90 for all my class stuff

 

[Scuba]

...........
Most shops that I've seen have 10-20K at a minimum into their compressors unless they are lucky to find a decent compressor from some other shop that went out of business.

Even if they somehow make 2 bucks a fill, that'd take a heck of a lot of fills to recover their initial expenses. The shop I used to visit back in Oregon MAY have rented or filled 25-40 customer tanks a week. At 50-80 bucks a week to pay off their compressor, not to mention employees, I'm sure their compressor was a HUGE money maker - NOT.

I worked for a busy shop in Hawaii, part of my duties was filling tanks. 26,000 buck compressor, and they still probably only filled maybe 15-40 private tanks or rental tanks in a day. The rest all went for their charters so they don't really count. Their compressor probably broke down 3 times a year. Cost a bunch of money to maintain. You think they raked in profits off their compressors?

There's a lot more to the cost of an airfill than people think.

later,

While shops may not be making much money off air, I doubt they're loosing any or much. While I don't have a compressor, all the the fairly detailed cost brakedowns I've heard from those who own them, make the fill price lower than most LDS's charge. Definitely in the ballpark. I have not heard of a good accurate cost brakedown from a shop. Life of compressor. Various operating and repair costs brakedown. Number of fills, etc. in a way that can be accurately analysed. By the way, unless charters are free those air fills do count.

There's a nearby shop I no longer get fills from because they will usually underfill. Last time I went to pick up tanks after leaving overnight, I specifically asked them if it was topped off. Yes, he said. Wrong answer. It's been a long time. I don't underpay them.

Many of the issues brought up on these threads go way beyond the issue of higher prices. Many of these shops would probably do better if they didn't treat their customers like crap. They've got some nerve to demand loyalty and support in return, or maybe they're just not too bright.

NWGratefulDiver]On the other side of the argument ... there's also no excuse for not treating a customer with absolute honesty and courtesy. That side of the discussion is, IMO, completely justified. Unfortunately, around here the sharks seem to be the ones who are managing to find a way to stay afloat, while the more customer-oriented shops are closing down ...

This is unfortunate. Fact of the matter is anti customer interests sales tatics can be quite successful if wily employed. At least for a period of time. A problem with an apparent significant number of shops is their lack of sales and general business skills. Either pro or anti consumer. One thing is for sure, change is in the air. I would like to think and hope for the betterment of the sport.

 

[toodive4]

Haven't learned your lessons yet? Looks like you finally have.

So, this past week I had gone to my LDS and said, Hey, I need a wrist mount compass boot and a computer boot. He had had the computer boot in stock, but not the compass boot, Ok, says I, gimme the computer boot, and I will come back for the compass boot on monday or tuesday. He had quoted me a price on each boot of 16 bux, which I thought was perfect since http://shop.diversdirect.com/item/Aeris Compass Wrist Boot_ID12139 has them at 13 bucks. I like supporting local business and it was worth 3 bux to me. I paid for the computer boot right then and there, and took the computer with me, but no compass. I paid for the compass boot when I picked it up last night. 38 dollars! (mind you this is with 2 air fills at 3 dollars a piece so 32 bux) He under quoted me by 100%. I say "hey whats up" and he says "i am not making any money off of you this is what it cost me"...While I am a nice guy and don't like confrontation I wanted to slap him in the face and point him only at divers direct where he could order them himself for 13 bux, and have still made some sort of profit. Needless to say, he will only be seeing air fill purchases from me in the future.

 

[cornfed]

I am sick and tired of hearing about...

You know what I'm sick and tired of hearing? LDS Bashing. I hate to break it to everyone but LeisurePro, Dive Inn and any other online retailer are no different than your LDS when it comes to the bottom line. They're all in it to make money. They may have a better business plan that lets them make more money by taking less of yours then your LDS does but everyone is trying to make money.

It sounds like Lord got screw. That sucks and I don't blame him for not wanting to go back. You certainly can fault your LDS for having bad customer service. If they don't make you feel welcome or that you're being taken advantage well go shop somewhere else. But shut the heck up while you're doing so.

LDS bashing is worse then PADI bashing because for the most part it runs rampant and unchecked. All it takes is one person saying they had a bad experience with one shop before the "Dive Shops are Evil" bandwagon gets rolled out and everyone jumps on.

Recently I've seen a few posts by people claiming that they've had their regulators serviced faster and cheaper at ScubaToys then by their LDS. I'm sorry your particular LDS is slow and expensive. But guess what, not only is my cheap and fast, they've shown me a bunch of little tricks so I don't have to bring it in for little stuff like switching from DIN to yoke fittings. Someone also said that they sent their new regs back to ScubaToys because there was a problem with the second stage and Larry not only fixed the problem but preemptively did the annual service for free. Guess what, my LDS did the exact same thing for my buddy.

While it may seem like I'm picking on ScubaToys I'm not. I'm simply pointing out that a fantastic altruistic internet retailer and my evil money hungry LDS are actually giving the exact same service. Why? Because the both stores are run by smart businessmen. I'm sorry if your LDS is run by a moron but that doesn't mean all of them are.

 

[toodive4]

You might have an aneurism. Relax... nobody said LDS's were evil. It is a simple known fact that 95% of them overcharge for services, trips and gear. I'm all for the American way... but not at my expense. I like to keep as much of my money as possible. If you like to throw yours away and contribute to your LDS owners Tahiti hideaway... god bless you. There are others who agree with you. Most of us however know when to spend in the LDS and when not to. I support my LDS's by buying air there and an occassional small item, but it makes no sense at all to pay $600 for something I can buy for $300. If you're that wealthy, perhaps you can send some money my way and I'll gladly give it to my LDS so they can buy a thrid home in Maui.

K

You know what I'm sick and tired of hearing? LDS Bashing. I hate to break it to everyone but LeisurePro, Dive Inn and any other online retailer are no different than your LDS when it comes to the bottom line. They're all in it to make money. They may have a better business plan that lets them make more money by taking less of yours then your LDS does but everyone is trying to make money.

It sounds like Lord got screw. That sucks and I don't blame him for not wanting to go back. You certainly can fault your LDS for having bad customer service. If they don't make you feel welcome or that you're being taken advantage well go shop somewhere else. But shut the heck up while you're doing so.

LDS bashing is worse then PADI bashing because for the most part it runs rampant and unchecked. All it takes is one person saying they had a bad experience with one shop before the "Dive Shops are Evil" bandwagon gets rolled out and everyone jumps on.

Recently I've seen a few posts by people claiming that they've had their regulators serviced faster and cheaper at ScubaToys then by their LDS. I'm sorry your particular LDS is slow and expensive. But guess what, not only is my cheap and fast, they've shown me a bunch of little tricks so I don't have to bring it in for little stuff like switching from DIN to yoke fittings. Someone also said that they sent their new regs back to ScubaToys because there was a problem with the second stage and Larry not only fixed the problem but preemptively did the annual service for free. Guess what, my LDS did the exact same thing for my buddy.

While it may seem like I'm picking on ScubaToys I'm not. I'm simply pointing out that a fantastic altruistic internet retailer and my evil money hungry LDS are actually giving the exact same service. Why? Because the both stores are run by smart businessmen. I'm sorry if your LDS is run by a moron but that doesn't mean all of them are.

 

[Marek K]

You might have an aneurism. Relax... nobody said LDS's were evil. It is a simple known fact that 95% of them overcharge for services, trips and gear. I'm all for the American way... but not at my expense. I like to keep as much of my money as possible. If you like to throw yours away and contribute to your LDS owners Tahiti hideaway... god bless you. There are others who agree with you. Most of us however know when to spend in the LDS and when not to. I support my LDS's by buying air there and an occassional small item, but it makes no sense at all to pay $600 for something I can buy for $300. If you're that wealthy, perhaps you can send some money my way and I'll gladly give it to my LDS so they can buy a thrid home in Maui.

Hey, man, good job of calming Drew down!

 

[Chris Sawallich]

That is probably the single most egregious misuse of the term I've ever seen.

This Board is where I learned this term.. I am taking this comment to mean you have drank from the Cool-aid... Or you have an intrest in and LDS yourself..

 

[mstudley]

Not only does it cost a lot to maintain a web site and online ordering system, but most of the online stores are actual brick and mortar dive shops with an online presence, so they have greater overhead vs the LDS.

Web Hosting Fees, Bandwidth, Shopping Cart/Credit Card/Merchant Account Fees, Web Development Teams (webmasters), shipping/printing servers for labels, etc. etc. Not to mention warehouse space (storing retail) as well as office space to run the frontend.

Are you guys kidding? It [can] cost -so- much less to run an online shop than it does a brick and mortar store. You can setup a server over a cable/dsl connection in your basement (which also can double as 'warhouse space' and the 'office space frontend') with open source database software (like MySQL) to handle the backend and either create your own page with online ordering system or pay someone else to host it for you all served under open source web servers (like Apache)

You could have a staff of two people to begin with (which cuts down a LOT on cost) and run it in your spare time while still keeping your day job.

The list of expenses a brick and mortar shop has (staff, electricity, displays, heat, rent/mortgage, etc, etc, etc) is at least twice as long as an online shop and the only thing an online shop can't offer are air fills which don't make you any money anyway. Granted full classes can't be offered online but you can offer those PADI 'half classes' (or whatever they're called) or forget about the hassle entirely.

Regardless if your intention is to have just an online shop, the expenses are much less. All of this is under the assumption that you either A) know how to set this stuff up by yourself or B) will take the time to learn how if you don't.

 

[cornfed]

You might have an aneurism. Relax... nobody said LDS's were evil. It is a simple known fact that 95% of them overcharge for services, trips and gear.

Why does everyone assume that because you're buying more then air or few odds and ends that you're getting screwed? I'm in the market for a complete deco/stage bottle setup. I need everything from regs to tank. Maybe I'm in that 5% you talk about but it's only costing me $50 more to buy from the LDS than the best deal I could find online. And since that "best deal" required purchases from two seperate dealers, once I factor in shipping it's pretty much a wash.

Most of us however know when to spend in the LDS and when not to. ... If you're that wealthy, perhaps you can send some money my way and I'll gladly give it to my LDS so they can buy a thrid home in Maui.

This is so outlandish and ridiculous that I don't really know where to begin. My dive shop doesn't move as much product as LP, Dive Inn, etc., so in order to make enough money to stay in business he needs to sell that smaller volume at higher markup. That's economics 101. You can either look at the bottom line and say you're getting screwed or you can look at the bigger picture and see what sort of intangibles you might be getting if you pay that markup. It's a forest vs trees thing.

The fact that I understand this and use it in my decision making process doesn't mean I'm flushing money down the toilet. My new manifold will likely come from FL and I'm going to Philly to get a drysuit. Just because I refuse to accept the dominate paradigm that all (or in your case 95%) dive shops are simply out to bleed me dry doesn't mean I don't know what a good deal is.