Why do we teach flutter kick at all?

[Adobo]

The flutter kick is just one kick divers should learn.

Why not have a choice of kicks to use?

Personally, I think the OP asked the wrong question. (To be fair, I am still sore at her for essentially calling me a wuss. But that's a different discussion altogether).

I think the right question would have been, why do we (as a whole) do such a crappy job of teaching the flutter kick such that so many exit open water looking like they are riding a bicycle rather than swimming?

When it comes to your question of why not teach a choice of kicks... what is the utility of knowing how to do a variety of kicks the wrong way?

 

[gypsyjim]

When I was certified in 1972, we did not use BC's, just the harness and a steel 72 with j valve, and single reg. Around 76 I tried a horse collar, and immediately decided it was the worst piece of sh** possible, and any one that needed one should be playing golf instead. Almost anything would be better than a horsecollar, even the early stab jackets or the At Pac, or anything. Liking the past is all well and good, but get a grip. We have some junk today, and we had some in the 60's and 70's too.

Those horse collars were really only for surface work, not buoyancy control U/W. I know some folks did discover they could add a bit of air, and a few fools even had races to the surface using the CO2 bottles some of the May Wests had, but that last was effin lunatic macho bs, and got folks bent quick.

My first experience with any on board BC system was in the mid 80's, and it got me hurt because, being a young tough guy, I did not bother to train on the new system, and figured a quick run down on it's use in the LDS was all I needed. Bad move. Very bad move.
It was that accident that turned me into a believer in retraining, and continuing training.

 

[Paladin]

danvolker,
I never used a BC at all until three years ago. But I found myself wanting to dive with my sons at places where they are required. I found a good deal on a new horse collar from Divers Supply, so I bought it. Actually, I happen to like it. My Aeris EX100 is a good one, too.

Back in the 70s, most divers were dead set against any type of BC. Like you said, the prevailing opinion was that anyone who needed a buoyancy control device should not be diving. I was one of those who would not even consider using one. I got away with not having one until three years ago, when my two sons decided they wanted to start diving.

Yes, I still like diving vintage gear, but my stuff is pretty eclectic. For any given dive, I just use whatever I happen to be in the mood for.

Gypsyjim,
My horse collar is a more modern version with an inflator hose, dump valves, etc. It does work for buoyancy control underwater, if you want to use it for that.

Would everybody like my choices? Nope. But they work for me!

 

[TSandM]

How did BCs get in here? This was a thread about whether, since open water students know absolutely NOTHING about diving before they get there, they should be taught a non-silting kick from the get-go. I live in a silty environment and I hate seeing people blow the viz; in addition, those ill-advised folks who venture into overhead environments without the training seem to get into trouble primarily because they ruin their visibility.

This had NOTHING to do with DIR, and nothing to do with backplates. It was a question about kicking techniques.

 

[JamesK]

And this is precisely the biggest issue at the BHB Marine Park, and it begins with the "bad instructors" that "teach" new students to walk and stand on the nudibranch and hydroid covered bottoms, and routinely have the students so overweighted that they are swimming with feet down hitting the bottom, head up at 40 degrees, and many in fear of how they would reach the surface if they needed to. 80% of the classes at BHB leave monstrous silt trails behind the students. There are some AWESOME instructors that teach at BHB, and their classes look nothing like this. And there are some really awful instructors, that should be embarrassed by videos... here is one
instructing-or-not - YouTube See what begins 41 seconds in to a beautiful dive with crystal clear vis.... I believe this instructor should lose his ability to teach. I see no excuse.

Dan, that has to be one of the most disturbing classes I have seen. I have seen some bad ones.

 

[Bob DBF]

How did BCs get in here? This was a thread about whether, since open water students know absolutely NOTHING about diving before they get there, they should be taught a non-silting kick from the get-go. I live in a silty environment and I hate seeing people blow the viz; in addition, those ill-advised folks who venture into overhead environments without the training seem to get into trouble primarily because they ruin their visibility.

How does anything wind up in a thread anyway? The ill-advised folks who venture into overhead environments without the training seem to get into trouble primarily because they don't listen or read, the bad vis is just a byproduct.

This had NOTHING to do with DIR, and nothing to do with backplates. It was a question about kicking techniques.

As for kicking techniques, know them all and use them appropriately.



Bob
------------------------------------------------
I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

 

[danvolker]

danvolker,
I never used a BC at all until three years ago. But I found myself wanting to dive with my sons at places where they are required. I found a good deal on a new horse collar from Divers Supply, so I bought it. Actually, I happen to like it. My Aeris EX100 is a good one, too.

Back in the 70s, most divers were dead set against any type of BC. Like you said, the prevailing opinion was that anyone who needed a buoyancy control device should not be diving. I was one of those who would not even consider using one. I got away with not having one until three years ago, when my two sons decided they wanted to start diving.

Yes, I still like diving vintage gear, but my stuff is pretty eclectic. For any given dive, I just use whatever I happen to be in the mood for.

Gypsyjim,
My horse collar is a more modern version with an inflator hose, dump valves, etc. It does work for buoyancy control underwater, if you want to use it for that.

Would everybody like my choices? Nope. But they work for me!

I'm pretty sure several of the Palm Beach boats would let you dive with one of the plastic harnesses and no BC.,..just like we did in the 70's.
And, back in the 70's, we learned EXACTLY how much weight we needed...and at least when diving with a lycra suit, or bathing suit, we had no situation where we would be overweighted and feet down, roto-tilling the bottom.
This gets back to the current thread...too many instructors don't care to get the students to use the correct amount of weight...then they don't teach them how to kick properly, and they teach no respect for the ecology of the dive site...
All instructors are NOT equal. While some are really awesome.....Some are really bad for the sport, and the really bad ones need to be weeded out, or their broken ideas and skills, fixed

 

[Paladin]

I'm pretty sure several of the Palm Beach boats would let you dive with one of the plastic harnesses and no BC.,..just like we did in the 70's.
And, back in the 70's, we learned EXACTLY how much weight we needed...and at least when diving with a lycra suit, or bathing suit, we had no situation where we would be overweighted and feet down, roto-tilling the bottom.
This gets back to the current thread...too many instructors don't care to get the students to use the correct amount of weight...then they don't teach them how to kick properly, and they teach no respect for the ecology of the dive site...
All instructors are NOT equal. While some are really awesome.....Some are really bad for the sport, and the really bad ones need to be weeded out, or their broken ideas and skills, fixed

Not long ago, my sons and I went over to a quarry in Ohio. The visibility at that particular quarry is usually 10 to 15 feet. On that day, however, there were several OW classes going on and the vis quickly degenerated to about two feet or less. The culprits were the students who were bicycle pedaling around the quarry, just off the bottom.

I do not use the frog kick and neither do my boys. I have arthritis in my hips and knees and the frog kick is a bit painful for me. What we use is a proper flutter kick where the thrust is generated by the top of the foot on the down stroke, with the stroke ending with the leg pretty much in line with the body. Also, we tend to stay several feet off the bottom to minimize our impact on the bottom silt. What I was seeing were people pedaling around and getting most (if not all) of their propulsion from the bottom surfaces of their fins while moving their feet in a circular motion. They were literally pushing themselves along like climbing horizontal stairs. Their fin tips were pointed down during the corrupt power stroke, sending water into the bottom and stirring up the silt.

What I saw served to re-enforce my belief that SCUBA divers should be taught the art and science of skindiving (freediving, as it's called now) before moving on to SCUBA. The proper use of fins, mask and snorkel should be mastered first, so that SCUBA divers have a better grasp of what they're doing. When my sons expressed a desire to learn to SCUBA dive, I began their training by teaching them how to skindive first. Bicycle pedaling just will not work for skindiving and is a "technique" that is quickly discarded in favor of a more efficient, streamlined form which is then carried over to SCUBA diving.

Sadly, in this day of instant gratification, I doubt there would be many students who would be willing to spend the extra time needed, nor would many instructors.

 

[Bombay High]

If you want bang for your buck look to the free divers. You can be sure that they have researched and experimented ad nauseum which kick gives you the most propulsion for gas and effort.

I have yet to see a freediver use the frog kick ...

Horses for courses

 

[ADeadlierSnake]

If you want bang for your buck look to the free divers. You can be sure that they have researched and experimented ad nauseum which kick gives you the most propulsion for gas and effort.

I have yet to see a freediver use the frog kick ...

Then you havent seen many freediving videos....



Also, scuba diving isnt freediving. They are entirely different skill sets