Why do we teach flutter kick at all?

[Bombay High]

The link doesnt work... I suspect that its a william trubridge video. He is exceptional because he does not use fins, and also uses his hands in breaststroke.

 

[ADeadlierSnake]

Yeah, I was having trouble getting the embedding to work for some reason. It is that video. Yes he uses his hands, but like I said, freediving and scuba diving are completely different. Freedivers arent trying to glide over a reef horizontally, or move over a silty bottom without disturbing it. They are all about vertical movement, while we scuba divers are all about horizontal movement

 

[Bombay High]

No argument there ... my point was strictly about propulsion. I agree that the frog kick and back kick are tremendous kicks to know. My point was in reply to the OP about why teach it at all.

 

[gypsyjim]

I am a diver who has to rely heavily of a flutter kick because of a fused ankle. I do not have the ankle articulation required to develop a very useful frog or back kick. I can do both with a lot of effort, and some pain, so I seldom use either unless I really need them.

My kick is generally a modified flutter, and for serious power if I need it I shift to a full flutter kick, but my fins not only are not anywhere near the reef, and I make sure the down stroke does not disturb the bottom. I am continually monitoring the effect of my kick cycle whenever I am over silt or soft sand.

There are a variety of kick styles one can use, but with any of them, good buoyancy control and awareness of the effect of you kicks are the key to avoiding either damaging the reef, or disturbing the viz for yourself and others.

---------- Post Merged at 08:05 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 07:58 AM ----------

When my kids did their OW they learned frog kick as well as flutter kick. I do not recall any mention of back kick when I was monitoring their PADI OW, but there certainly was an emphasis on the usefulness of a good frog kick.

On the other hand, the class still was planted on the bottom of the pool to do drills, which a lot of instructors who post on SB have been trying to educate others to avoid. Emphasizing the mastery of buoyancy control, and demonstrating such control throughout the drills is in my opinion the solution to a lot of the new diver issues we have been discussing.

Getting other instructors to see this, and be willing to put in the effort it takes to get their students to this level is an entirely different story.

 

[danvolker]

No argument there ... my point was strictly about propulsion. I agree that the frog kick and back kick are tremendous kicks to know. My point was in reply to the OP about why teach it at all.

When I first began freediving, getting my weighting exactly right was huge....next was learning how to control my heart rate ( and this controlling breathing rate/ breathold bottom time) , and then came trying to perfect flutter kick and dolphin kick. This would mean different mechanics of each kick depending on the speed you needed for what you are doing....there is a very real "gear changing" you can do with freedive fins, where slow cruising uses a certain kick type that pulls almost nothing in terms of heart rate boosting( lets you stay near resting pulse), and when you want to go medium speed, a different balance of hips and dorsal extension of foot and different flex of knees....and for very high speeds, everything changes to a shorter amplitude with very rapid kick cycle and actual oscillation of the freediving blade--this amazing with the carbon fiber fins.

The better carbon fiber fins have much bigger differences in the gear changes.....AND, the Dive R freedive blades and the fins by specialfin.com , let you frog kick really well, while Cressis and C4 Mustang( C4's actually the worst for frog kick) are not so hot for frog kick....the Mustang C4's are like $600 carbon fiber fins, with discrete left and right foot pockets, and great power transfer like running shoes....however, they have rails on each side of the fin blade, so the sideways sliding you need for part of the frog kick is impaired a great deal....you can do a frog kick with the C4, but it is very inefficient... Proper weighting with C4's or other freedive fins ( either dead neutral or imperceptibly positive) would keep the angle of thrust straight back or upwards--at the BHB in shallow silty conditions, you would stay maybe 3 pounds positive, and thrust would never disturb the silt on the bottom).

The diveR fins are pretty awesome for Frog kick for a freediver. They are much stiffer carbon fiber, and the stiffness is far beyond that of cressis or other freedive fins, but with enormous return after the stiff push--almost like a hand pushes you forward after your kick...There are no side rails, so articulation of the ankles and the slide needed for frog kick is easy. Now you have a huge platform to PUSH with, in the way we get a PUSH from Jetfins with the frogkick, as opposed to the way we get almost no PUSH from splits. The glide then with the Dive R's is wild , and frog kick with these can be ridiculously faster than a scuba diver could flutter kick at full speed. Granted, the freediver has no drag relatively speaking, but we are talking about propulsion not so much drag right now. With my Halcyon 18 pound wing, an al 80, and everything configured for maximum slickness, the glide with scuba on the big diveR's on using frog kick is very impressive too..and allows very low heart rates, and speeds well beyond what a typical gaggle of recreational divers led by a DM will be swimming at

Bombay, not meaning to argue with you on this, for 99% of the universe, you are dead on with what you had said....In fact, I am the only one I know that uses diveR freedive fins.

 

[captain]

I dive Lake Ponchartrain in Louisiana, I started diving the lake 55 years ago. The bottom is a fine black silt and the slightist thing will disturb it. I only use the flutter kick but learned to use buoyancy control and trim to not silt it up. I have tried the frog kick, I find it uncomfortable.

 

[danvolker]

I dive Lake Ponchartrain in Louisiana, I started diving the lake 55 years ago. The bottom is a fine black silt and the slightist thing will disturb it. I only use the flutter kick but learned to use buoyancy control and trim to not silt it up. I have tried the frog kick, I find it uncomfortable.

Sure....head down feet slightly up trim with maybe a 1/4 pound positive bouyancy, and flutter kick is awesome for this, with the right skill at flutter kick. Many of us did hundreds if not thousands of really extreme dives, with no use or awareness of frog kick, or reverse kick.
Now that I have them, I do find places where I like to use them...but I was fine from the 70's to the late 90's without either

But back in the old days, most of us DID do significant snorkel or freediving, and we had to learn real weighting optimization, and trim to dive without a bc. Our techniques after 20 certified scuba dives, was probably very different than a group of ow students today when they hit 20 certified dives...they have taken SO MANY SHORTCUTS!!!

If I had to work with an OW diver today, I might like making them learn frog kick, because, like freediving, it pretty much causes a lot of awareness of trim, and glide( or lack of glide due to poor trim, etc).
Or, do a class where they don't get to use a BC..just a harness and backplate--and have to learn proper weighting

 

[Bombay High]

Bombay, not meaning to argue with you on this, for 99% of the universe, you are dead on with what you had said....In fact, I am the only one I know that uses diveR freedive fins.

Hi Dan,
I also bought the DiveR fins based on your recommendation .
They are phenomenal. It took a while to get my ankle and hamstrings used to the feel of the blade, but I love them.
They also cost as much as the total of all freedive fins I have bought in 22 years !

 

[Paladin]

Yeah, I was having trouble getting the embedding to work for some reason. It is that video. Yes he uses his hands, but like I said, freediving and scuba diving are completely different. Freedivers arent trying to glide over a reef horizontally, or move over a silty bottom without disturbing it. They are all about vertical movement, while we scuba divers are all about horizontal movement

This may be true about modern freedivers, I wouldn't know. I was talking about skindivers, who are/were all over the place when diving. I mentioned freedivers to illustrate that I was talking about breath hold divers and the fact that they need to learn how to do an efficient fin stroke and pedaling ain't it. My point, simply put, is that a good background in skindiving makes for better SCUBA divers, IMO.

 

[Hank49]

.In fact, I am the only one I know that uses diveR freedive fins.

Nice review, Dan. How are the footpockets on those? Any brand options on the footpocket? If not, are the stock ones soft? I'm getting some cysts from pressure points on my fins. The Riffes are the hardest, most uncomfortable ones I ever used. (sorry for the slight derail)