Which brand of steel cylinder / tank should I buy?

[BetterLateThannever]

I have read all the posts on this thread with great interest, simply because I know, without a doubt that everyone posted has much more knowledge and experience with diving than I. I must make the decision at some point, that all of you seem to have made already.

For what it's worth; I have found sound reasoning on both sides of the argument, and you're right King Neptune, we newbies are listening....LOUDLY.

Now my .02. Bottom line I too believe too many "blanket" statements get made,ie; lumping all new divers together. In my current class of 4, let me tell you, we are 4 very different personalities with very different learning curves.

Atomox, 100Daysayear and Lost Yooper...you come across as technically knowledgeable, but, if I may say so also somewhat overbearing and arrogant. Believe me, that is not meant as an insult; just an observation. For all I know, it may just be a cultural(geographical) thing. But I get the real sense that I, or anyone like me, would never be allowed into your diving world. Just too much of a potential liability. I can't help feeling that the diving community would be a very harsh and cold place to be if everyone approached it the way you seem to. Please, please note that I used the words "seem to". Again, it may just be the way you are coming across in this thread.

Bottom, bottom line, I think that I would not only feel, but actually be much safer diving with buddies that realize they don't have all the answers, such as King_Neptune and others like him, rather than with those of you who appear to believe you can actually "plan your dive and dive your plan" in a dynamic and foreign environment.

BTW, that is a catchy phrase, but to my way of thinking nothing more than marketing hype.... plus maybe topped off with a little too much arrogance.

To my mind it would be more accurately stated:
[red]Plan you dive, dive your plan and hope for the best.[/red]...
(and when things go wrong, remember your trainging as best possible and if needed, IMPROVISE!)


Jimbo

 

[bradymsu]

Jimbo,

For a "newbie" you sound like you've got a great head on your shoulders. One important thing I've learned while diving is that the really good divers become more humble the more experience they get. As they dive and meet other divers, they develop an increasing degree of deferential respect for varied techniques in what amounts to a new sport with many years of evolutionary refinement ahead of it before any "right" way to dive is reached.

I think we all know divers, some of who are barely out of open water, who think they know all the right answers, the right instructors, the right equipment, the right configuration and the right places to dive. Sadly, questioning these types only makes them more defensive and in the faceless world of the interent, the language can become nasty. I dive with buddies who enjoy diving, not those who use diving to prove themselves to the world.

 

[100days-a-year]

BLT, you are correct in that most people are not accepted into my circle of dive buddies until they are pretty experienced. But the reason is that most of my diving is very challenging (except for the temps) Its either Deep, Penetration, Lo or No Vis, and High current (2+kts) However many people have made thier 1st open _water dives with me. The majority of dive fatalities happen in our realm of diving. This makes us somewhat jumpy about what seems to be nit-picky points. I personally thank God that my instructors were harsh most of the time. Until I learned enough and experienced enough, I was a liability. Now for regular OW dives anyone whos not totally a bonehead or has a grossly deficient personality is welcome on my boat. Respect and Competentness are earned rather than being bestowed upon completion of initial training.

 

[Bob]

King Neptune, I can honestly say that I never would have thought of your solution to free your buddy. I've been diving for many years and believe me, I'll file this one away! Quick, and effective thinking on your part. Your quick action came from years of experience and training. New divers need to understand that after fifty dives, there're just beginning to learn how to dive! As for the question of using pony bottles, why not? More air, better chance to survive, right? It is just common sense that A diver simply can't plan for every suitation that can (or will) happen underwater!

I usually scan though the forums daily, this one and one other have caught my attention. There's several people on this board who want to turn diving(and the discussions on this board)into Rocket Science. Now don't get me wrong, every diver neeeds to know and understand a certain amount of theory, and dive medicine. We can expound on formulas and the laws of physics all we like, but that doesn't help one person become a better diver. Fellas, diving is all about Training and Safety. Proper training allows one to be a safer diver, that and a healthy dose of logic and common sense. King Neptune, putting it like you did makes an otherwise cloudy topic pretty clear, thanks for your insight!

:tree: Bob

 

[Lost Yooper]

I'm somewhat in the same boat as 100 Days a Year on the dives I do. If my buddy isn't there 100%, I could die very easily. On challanging dives, I only dive with someone I know, respect, and am comfortable with. Most of the people I dive with are very similary configured and share similar philosophies. On a 60' reef dive in the caribean, I could almost care less how my buddy is configured since the diving there is so easy by comparison.

If people don't like the opinion, on either side of an issue, who cares! These boards are all about learning and that is done through debate. Of course, it sometimes gets out of hand, but in the end someone has learned something, and that's what it's all about.

Maybe they learned that the Lost Yooper is arrogant, or maybe they learned that carrying a extra gear doesn't always introduce more problems then they're trying to solve. Either way, good things always happen here and that is a good thing.

I'm a DIR advocate, but unlike many other DIR divers do, I always try to express my opinions in a very non combative manner -- Which I am glad that I have done because King Neptune has clearly punched a clean hole into what I thought was an airtight belief, I can see his points clearly and am glad I didn't go off the deep end, actually listened and thus learned.

I'm interested in discussing anything with anybody willing to listen, but I won't argue endlessly with someone. I certainly don't get mad over some things when there is possibly something for me to learn -- well, unless I had a really bad day at work and need to vent (wink).

Take care.

Mike

 

[devjr]

Carrying a pony on extreme dives is justified. I would think that many divers do not need them, some might. Carrying one on a 60 foot reef dive is like carrying a "talisman", an act of superstition.(If I carry one, nothing bad will happen). Reminds me of the "Jaws" frenzy in the 70's. Shark darts were selling like crazy. Guys would strap them to their tanks.

Once, many moons ago, diving a shipwreck in the Chesapeake, one of our divers, a woman, made a free ascent from 80 feet. She was about 10 minutes into the dive when a part inside the double manifold reserve valve came loose and jammed the outlet. She pulled the CO2 detonator on her vest. I saw her surface with a splash and rise about two feet above the suface. She was wet and pissed; she had just purchased the used twin 50's from a local diver. Don't remember the exact story but evidently it was a "snap" decision not to try to catch up with her buddy in the dark water.

Once, also long ago, diving the wall at 130 feet depth, I saw a diver's bubbles far below and a second diver swimming straight down, really pumping. Both were at more than 200 feet depth. Later, the second diver said that our dentist friend just started swimming down and could not be turned by signalling. He disappeared forever.

Three years ago, returning to our boat from a reef dive off Bimini, I saw USCG helicopters and local boats circling the area. As I dried off, my friend, the skipper, said that two instructors from the nearby Miami based diveboat had attempted a dive to 400 feet. It seems there was some sort of rivalry. Neither were found.

The incident involving the woman is absolutely one I've seen where a "pony" would have helped, and I've seen a lot. The thing is, the majority of incidents/accidents are like the latter. Preparation helps but the final determinant is the diver or divers.

Oh yeah Youper, arrogant? You? Nah, strictly an amateur in that category.

 

[Military Diver]

Lost Yooper,

If people don't like the opinion, on either side of an issue, who cares!

Normally I would have agreed, but I have to admit that when KN put it the way he did I immediately saw the bright lights flick on!

Just as I saw many of the members here put a QUICK stop to some racial garbage, or someone like Dr Deco steps in to clear the rumors and give us the scoop on Decompression, there are some things that are only an "opinion" and some things that are pretty black and white.

Everyone else,

It was just not right for someone to call a fellow diver an Idiot for being concerned about their own safety! I find it rather disgusting that the topic went on for so long arguing about it. Someone mentioned that the only true use for an AA Source was for deco stops or what not? On which planet? The link KN gave is for items that were NEVER meant to be anything but an optionally added "Safety" feature or maybe something like a stuck boat anchor in shallow waters. Even if all it ever does is "add confidence" then it has paid for its self. Confidence has its place, but over Confidence can potentially be a deadly mixture with diving.

I'll tell you one thing, if those of you that disagreed tried pulling that kind of bogus "Macho" Garbage in my line of work, you would not live long enough to spread such an infectious, potentially fatal and arrogant attitude!

You continuously go on and on about "Buddy this and Buddy that" ... Yet, in the same breath of air you basically tell everyone that 1) You're too good to actually need a buddy and 2) Even if you had a buddy you would leave them behind if it didn't fall into your "Plans". Now, of course that isn't exactly what you said but the way you conveniently skirt the issues by saying your either too good or your buddy is too good or that you STICK TO THE PLAN only leaves the option I mentioned. So that is basically all that you leave us to believe... Very Sad...

Of all the wild things I've ever heard people say in all my years diving, I've never heard someone publicly blurt out something so ignorant!
What kind of buddy are you to call someone an idiot for wanting to carry the Number 1 most important thing to a diver, Air!?! You could NEVER have too much Air at your disposal, just ask any "drowning victim"!

I mean, get real people! ... At the time of trouble, your number one objective, if out of air, is what?
1) To "P l a n" some more?
2) To rethink your "P l a n"?
3) To ignore your delima, because its not a part of your "P l a n"?
4) To "P l a n" to "P l a n" better next time?

Heck NO!! - [red]It's to get AIR![/red]

Do you see how silly you sound yet? Do you see the potential serious threat you put yourself and worse, other divers, into with your arrogant and closed mind way of thinking?

What ever happened to the notion that, "If it saves just one life - JUST ONE - then it was worth it"? Oh I forgot, saving a life isn't in your plan, I wonder if your buddy is having second thoughts about you yet... Is you buddy a Spouse? Hmmm, they need to make sure there hasn't been any odd increases in the amount of Life Insurance Coverage they carry on you!

Please, for your own sake, if not yours then your buddies, "Plan your thoughts" a little better and just as important, "Plan" what you say to others a little better! The scarry part is, that for those of you that are quite experienced, people are going to listen to what you say! Maybe you just don't care, but I for one, do not want the death of a fellow diver to have been preventable if it wasn't for something I said.

As for that "saves just one life", well KN has already sharred one with us, and there must be a reason why they keep selling. Someone(s) out there have obviously been made believers before.

I will give you another quick instance of when they come in SUPER handy... When that pesky boat anchor line becomes tangled in only 30-40 feet of water and the last thing you feel like doing is tossing all your wet, cold gear back on just to untangle it. Grab a mask, slap on your fins or not, and pop the tiny little thing in your mouth and BINGO - You have that perfectly fitting 2-5 minutes of last minute air needed to go down and recover that brand new anchor and line you just bought! Just the saving of time being spared the hassle alone, of having to lose that new anchor and then to go hunt down another one to buy, yada yada, yada - It just paid for itsself. Heaven forbid it actually save your buttcheeks in a REAL pinch.

 

[Tavi]

Hey Thomas,

I was going to e-mail you but you have it turned off.

Other than the sticker on the tank, Is there any difference between the Aqua-Aire Sport and the Genesis HP Tanks ?

Thanks, Tavi

 

[scubakat]

Thanks for asking Tavi!! I was just going to ask that myself!

Thomas?

-kate

 

[WetDane]

Hey Kate,

I have another consideration for you...
Here's the scoop the way I see it - to get your 100 cf in a HP, you need to have a 3500 psi fill - which most shops are incapable of giving - so you end up with about 3000, by the time the tank is cooled you may be down to 2800 - without doing the math - I'd say you now have about 80cf or less in your tank...

As you know I dive LP104's - I need 2400 psi to get my 104 cf - our favorite mix master usually boost me alittle and I end up closer to 2800 in the water - you wanna guess who has more air? David (have you met?) and I consistently have 50+ minutes dives and plenty of air to spare...

Anyway - there was some other metaphysical subnuclear explanation that the mixmaster could not remember last time we talked about it...

Short of the long - I'm a happy camper - but maybe that's just because I can see in the dark murhy waters here...
<VBG>
Dane