When to Ditch your Buddy

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by blacknet
Hello,

Was poking fun of all things being the same and I just had to throw that in for a bit of humor. No insult/harm/damage intended just for humor.

Ed

Oh....
OK.....
Sure.....

I read your disclaimer....

I actually thought maybe you had something there that I missed


My point in the above excercise was to demonstrate that good buddies don't just happen... you develop team work.... that relationship keeps you out of trouble and when you do have trouble it gets you out of trouble.... both of you.

People who dive casual buddies can never know this and will be the ones who have problems and do end up ditching their "buddy."

 

[blacknet]

Hello,

The problem comes into play is this type of 'buddy' doesn't realize what the problem is or even that a problem exists untill it's to late. (see the thread tragic tragic tragic)

Ed

 

[jmsdiver]

To ditch or not to ditch......hmmmmmm

Let's see, I think my buddy has ditched me once at 115; she ducked into a tunnel that I did not see while I was taking a picture. Looked up and no one around. That's spooky. Finally caught up with her on the other side of the coral head, remembering the diagram the DM had drawn.

I think that I have ditched my buddy once or twice due to drysuit problems: the dump valve was placed wrong resulting in faulty dumping. This posed a problem on ascent and thus I ditched the buddy due to lack of choice.

I think in a "controlled" situation:

• I don't generally ditch my buddy because she would shoot me.
• If ditching would mean 1 less fatality, maybe, but her parents might shoot me.
• Maybe to save someone else if needed.

 

[Ontario Diver]

If I may add the point of view from a newbie diver..... (I may! Thanks all!)

I see/read a number of very experienced divers making comments that they will not dive with new divers (like me I assume)

This somewhat frustrates me because how else will I get to dive. Actually, I am lucky because the folks that I like to dive with are all DMs and Instructors anyway.

Your familiarity with your buddy and his/her level of experience is (IMHO) another factor in you dive plan. I'm pretty sure that Uncle Pug and Lost Yooper are not keen on diving with me on the Doria - but how about Kingston some of the wrecks (no penetration) at 80' in warm water (Well I think 65 is warm) or maybe the Morrison in Barrie in all 25ft of water 30 ft off the shore. For my part, I will not dive as a three buddy team unless I am very comfortable with the other two divers. I do not inflate my experience/training level. And I abort if I am not comfortable (with gear, with mission, or with buddy). And I do not want someone as my buddy who is uncomfortable as well.

I actually like diving with new buddies. Often, I will not dive with them again - because I am very picky about my safety! The newer the buddy, the closer I stay and the more often I initiate eye contact and the more often I read thier SPG. (Thanks to all of the good experienced buddies who taught me that)

As for leaving a buddy - Every First Aid and Rescue course covers this topic. (I've taught first aid, military first aid, Ski patroller, rope rescue). The answer in all of these courses is the same:

* Stay within your training/experience.
* Do NOT put yourself in Danger for someone else.
* You can't help if you are hurt and no one wants two body bags filled.

Once again, this is tempered with experience. We all have different experience/training that defines for us as individuals what is "dangerous" for us.

So I stay with my buddy as long as it is safe to do so. I do all I can pre and during the dive to make it as safe as possible. If my buddy disappears on me than I do the old search for 1 min and surface safely ( which I hopefully heave remembered to review with Buddy).


Dive safe

 

[blacknet]

Ontario Diver,

To me it's always an honor to dive with a 'newbie' or someone less experienced than I am. My reasoning is simple. It's not everyday that you get to pass on learned/earned skills/habits to others. Who knows maybe one of the habits/patterns I have will help save the life of another diver in the future. Then again when you dive with me there's a sence of 'togetherness' there's no room for machoism or ego's you leave that on the dock.

Ed

 

[Blargh]

Originally posted by Rick Murchison

Good example.. let's read it from the other fellow's point of view - "When I'm leading in less than wonderful visibility and my buddy just stops to look at something without letting me know he's stopping it only takes a fin kick and he's gone - he's ditched me."

Rick, I hope you're just playing devil's advocate here. Cramps and all that invisible fishing line can easily prevent the second diver in a buddy pair from "letting [you] know". Your p.o.v. sounds as if the pair leader has an excuse not to actively monitor their buddy....

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Ontario Diver
If I may add the point of view from a newbie diver..... (I may! Thanks all!)

I see/read a number of very experienced divers making comments that they will not dive with new divers (like me I assume)

This somewhat frustrates me because how else will I get to dive. Actually, I am lucky because the folks that I like to dive with are all DMs and Instructors anyway.

Ontario Diver..... may I just call you Ontario? (I may! Thanks!)

Ontario,
I like to dive with complete new divers....
Even Rototillers....
As long as they are learners....

But I always try to keep our dive below their skill level...
At a level that I could carry the full load our *rescue* ....

I actually like diving with new buddies. Often, I will not dive with them again - because I am very picky about my safety!

As a new diver... somehow these statements don't fit and follow....

Ontario.... develop a buddy team....
Actually with the right kind of training you can dive with a stranger of the same discipline and have most of the teamwork system already in place... http://www.gue.com


As for leaving a buddy - Every First Aid and Rescue course covers this topic. (I've taught first aid, military first aid, Ski patroller, rope rescue). The answer in all of these courses is the same:

* Stay within your training/experience.
* Do NOT put yourself in Danger for someone else.
* You can't help if you are hurt and no one wants two body bags filled.

I have heard that before...
And while it is what is taught concerning victims....
As a former FF I can tell you....
When it comes to your partner it ain't so....
When you and a brother go in as a team you exit as a team....
You don't ditch your partner..... period!

So I stay with my buddy as long as it is safe to do so.

That is the attitude part Uncle was talking about....
When you feel that your safety is compromised you bolt....
My buddies safety is my responsibility.
Note the period at the end of the last sentence.....

Now let me ask you a question Ontario....
Who would you rather dive with:
Someone with my attitude or someone with yours?


Dive safe - Dive as a team

 

[Bob]

Well,
We've gone from when to ditch a buddy, to the superior attitude of not diving with a person who doesn't embrace the same idealogy as you do. I assume that's what/who a stroke is? That's a disturbing thought isn't it? I take ever opportunity to help a less experienced diver. After all, we were all newbies at one point, were we not? :tree:Bob

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Blargh
Your p.o.v. sounds as if the pair leader has an excuse not to actively monitor their buddy....

Greetings Blargh,

Rick points out that someone needs to be the leader....
May I add that while that is true....
The leader should not be out in front!!!!
A correct buddy team will swim side by side...
(but not close enough to bump into one another)...
Communication through light signals is best...
But occassional glances will work for those who have not seen the light and purchased HIDs....

 

[Ontario Diver]

Ucle Pug;

I'd like to think that I'm not diving on my attitude or your attitude but "our" attitude. I apologize to all for not formulating some of my points properly.

I have been lucky enough to dive with many excellent divers who were more qualified than I. I find that the best take the attitude that you put forward. My experience (or lack therof) is a factor in planning the dive as you said.

I like diving with new buddies - as different from new divers. I can learn from everyone. I have noticed that I have a different attitude towards diving than most that is focused on coming back. I am working toward tech diving and am trying to build those attitudes into my diving now. Due to the level and clubs that I dive with - this is not always appreciated by the buddy that I get assigned with. So for the time being, that makes both of us uncomfortable and hence unsafe. Buddies who don't buddy check, eye check, gas check - I don't have the experiece to be 100% certain that I can execute a rescue in the best case; people that aren't actively diving with me make it doublely uncertain.

The tech Instructor that I am considering using makes the same comment as you that by sharing the same training ( equipment layout, SOPs, IAs) you can dive with others at the same experience level. He also requires low risk check out dives before hand to ensure that you and your buddy work on the same wavelength.

I am fully in agreement that my buddy's safety is my responsibility. The primary way I can do that (with my experience level) is to ensure that as a team we don't get into a situation where a rescue is required. And if I am not confident that I can keep that reponsibility (dive plan is outside of my/my buddy's experience, my or buddy's equipment not correct) - I have to abort before the problem occurs.

During the dive - well as someone wiser than I once said "S#!* happens." When I said that I stick with my buddy as long as it is safe to do so, perhaps what I should have said that it is as long as it is within a proper risk/benefit profile to do so...(but that is sooo wordy). I don't "bolt" from a dive buddy, but I don't chase them to 200' when I'm at 500 psi in my AL80 either. Now, I know that I'll risk DCI/AGE/hypothermia etc to save a life, but I'm not about to waste my life on a rescue that I can't affect.

Having said all of that, I am taking Rescue, DAN O2, MFA, and Neurological Exam this spring so I can extend the risk/benefit profile to something better.

I've been taught by FFs and they continually drilled into my somewhat packed skull that when your buddy needs rescuing - your buddy is now a victim not a buddy. (Between you and me - I know that this is all of the book/classroom learning - the real world isn't always so cut and dried as the examples we quote in these messages. )

I hope that I've managed to put to rest any issues that I would be quick to abandon a buddy. If anything, my inner fear is that I would go too far and get into a situation that I could not get out of.