Error Losing Your Group - Lessons to be Learned

This Thread Prefix is for incidents caused by the diver, buddy, crew, or anyone else in the "chain".

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

OP I appreciate your discussion. I see very experienced divers doing the same thing as you.

Is it likely you need a redundant gas supply when you are too far from the group to help you on a dive to 115 feet? Probably not.

The thought that I would have to attempt a CESA from 115 feet makes me want to take a redundant gas supply on every dive.

You are a scuba instructor but you obviously don't teach the SDI solo course.

Happy diving.
 
Were you assigned a dive buddy?
No. As I described in #49, my regular buddy skipped this dive. What difference do you think having an assigned buddy would have made on this dive? In that same vein, if you believe everyone should have an assigned buddy - and there's nothing wrong with that if that's the way you feel - who should the DM/guide have as his assigned buddy?
 
The thought that I would have to attempt a CESA from 115 feet makes me want to take a redundant gas supply on every dive.
I'm playing devil's advocate here because I'd like to understand your thinking: Why do you think I might have to do an CESA from 115 feet deep?

(Also bear in mind in this specific instance, I was around 50 feet deep when I lost the group and 20 feet deep where some of you are convinced I'm going to lose my gas supply.)
 
To Ken's point: C. For those who were concerned about a redundant air supply - I have an octo but no Spare Air or pony bottle - please explain to me what danger that posed and please remember I had at least 1,000psi coming out of the bow. (I dive with a Atomic T2 so don't go for "some regs won't breathe good once the air drops below 500psi.")

I guess discussing the broader issue of redundant gas supply in the context of the OP's dive (non-overhead) is not really a hijack here since this is such a free ranging discussion with so many imbedded issues. I get this has the potential to be a "dead horse tastes great less filling" circular firing squad and there will be strong feelings on the issue. Some even well though out. What follows is only my opinion but comes from lots of team dives in true overhead (cave, wreck, deco) with a minimalist (streamlined) attitude toward equipment that stipulates one should have the tools necessary for the dive (including contingencies) and no more. While solo diving (no buddy to carry redundant gas) is a special case of the non-overhead concept, even many guided group dives (no buddy teams/common training/commnon knowledge) are little more than a cluster of de facto solo divers in proximity. Guided dives potentially being spoke and hub (as opposed to team) dives where the clients are independent spokes all communicating though the guide/hub as opposed to aware/thoughful/communicating with each other.

Redundant gas/equipment is "good" because: 1) you have more gas. 2) you have a two regulators. 3) you have a bottle you can hand off to an OOG diver if needed.

Redundant gas/equipment is "bad" if it requires unnecessary gear and complexity, is a crutch for lousy gas management/situational awareness or encourages behavior beyond the divers training/comfort/abilities.

Opinions will vary as to cost benefit/what is "necessary."

Thoughts:

1. Is more gas always better. That depends on why you're carrying more gas and how. Poor gas management skill is not a good reason to carry redundant gas. You either properly manage (including planning) gas or you don't. Acquiring proper gas management skills and situational awareness is the solutiuon. Adding equipment to make up for poor skills (as popular as that notion is on SB, and among equipment manufacturers/retailers) is using a crutch and missing the forest for the trees. If you need more gas, bring a bigger tank or improve technique and conditioning to lower consumption, or both. If you don't know how to plan (properly calculate reserves/turn pressures) your gas for a dive (like a lot of recreational divers) get more/better training. Loading up on extra gear may be a retailer's/wanna be tech divers wet dream but more gear adds complexity/drag and is a bad idea if it gets in the way of streamlining/efficiency/really learning how to dive.

2. Is reg failure a risk. A reg can fail, just as can hoses and valve/DIN o rings. But are those failure modes truly catastrophic in the context of a recreational (non-overhead) dive? That is, do you lose gas/breathing ability so rapidly (instantaneously) that you can't survive the event without a redundant supply? A well maintained first stage doesn't just "seize up" and stop delivering gas. A downstream second fails open, not closed. Regs don't just spontaneously erupt into a massive freeflow if maintained and properly selected for the environment (temp). A high speed leak (blown HP seat, LP hose, o ring, free flow) is an emergency, but not an instantaneous cessation of gas. A blow out is unmistakably loud and you'll know it when you have one. A leak on the LP (high volume) side isn't going to deplete gas supply in the time it takes to do a CESA. A hose is most likely to fail upon presurization, not at the end of a dive. While equipment maintenance is key to preventing regulator/hose/o ring failure, failures can still happen (particularly with the proliferation of crappy hoses/parts from you-know-where). But gas depletion doesn't happen in seconds-more like minutes.

3. Handing off the bottle. Here again, handing off can be a good thing if donor and recipient have trained on it and keep their cool. But, in the event of an OOG diver in a non-overhead situation handing off may be worse (no better) than the donor sticking with the OOG diver during a gas sharing CESA.

As such, I'm hard pressed to see where reduandnt gas is "necessary" to safely execute a recreational/non-overhead dive provided sound diving practices (gas management/equipment maintenance) are observed.

The obvious counter to that is "what can it hurt?" That's a good question. It depends. Provided the redundant gas is truly contingent and carried in a streamlined and donatable manner sufficient to actually be useful (i.e. HEED/fixed/back mounted pony bottles need not apply), and the diver is not increasingly task loaded, is there a downside to it? Probably not, except a modest increase in drag/consumption. But there are a lot of conditions attached to that conclusion including being sufficiently practiced on the gear and trained/experienced for the plan that it doesn't do more harm than good. One aspect of potential harm is a false sense of security. Does the reduandnt gas supply encourage the diver to extend exposure beyond what they would do without the redundancy? If so that violates the condition of the gas/equipment being a true contingency. It becomes "wag the dog." That is "I'll do something I'm otherwise not comfortable/confident doing/trained for because if I f*** up/get in over my head I have my redudant gas to bail me out."
 
This perfectly illustrates the point of post #43. DM/guides are guides, not baby sitters. Besides, how do you know he didn't keep track and recognize the OP was peeling off and would join later? Perhaps the OP was doing this kind of excursion on every dive and it was SOP between the OP and the guide. When the OP did didn't rejoin during the dive or at the up line the guide went looking. If a diver consciously breaks off on their own, particularly one in whom the guide has high confidence, the guide is right to assume they'll rejoin the group on their own. As the OP stated, the fault was his.

Apologies if my post came off as accusatory. My questions were truly inquisitive, not rhetorical. Ken's post #49 added the details I was missing.
 
ADDITIONAL PERSPECTIVE AND CORRECTING SOME MISCONCEPTIONS
I have - for the most part - enjoyed the dialogue that my post has spurred. As a NAUI instructor for the past 44
>>
- Ken


Why do you feel compelled to throw down your ‘instructor’ status when you were not ‘instructing’ ?

As long as you brought the subject to the fore - is your instructor status current and how much instruction have you done in the past year?
 
Why do you feel compelled to throw down your ‘instructor’ status when you were not ‘instructing’ ?

As long as you brought the subject to the fore - is your instructor status current and how much instruction have you done in the past year?
If you fail to see that the goal of my original post was instructional - learn from the mistakes of others - perhaps you'd like to re-read it with that perspective in mind.

I also mention I'm an instructor to emphasize that "even instructors" can make mistakes.

I got certified in 1978 and started assisting my instructor (Norris Eastman) almost immediately, became a NAUI Instructor (#5936 - as it says in my sig line) in 1980, actively taught all levels up to DM through 2006 (never becamew an instructor-trainer), generally taught 5-10 basic classes per year with 10-15 students/class so a couple of thousand divers over the years have cards with my name on them, also oversaw our instructor/DM staff as well as we organized 40-50 local SoCal boat trips annually with 30-ish divers/trip, some of which I DM'd some of which I was an overseer, closed our brick-and-mortar store end of 2006 so stopped teaching basic OW classes (no pool, no gear) but still occasionally teach advanced along with nitrox and a couple of specialties (2-8 classes/year wit h1-8 students/class depending on what it is). Organize/escort/guide roughly 6 foreign dive vacation trips each year (through Reef Seekers) with anywhere from 6-16 people per trip averaging 20-25 dives per trip, along with some local (Catalina) guided dives which sometimes include refresher training. Also regularly lecture on dive safety and have since 2003 been the forensic consultant to the L.A. County Coroner for scuba fatalities and team up with the Coroner and the Catalina Hyperbaric Chamber to present an annual seminar/panel discussion at the LA Scuba Show entitled "Why Divers Die" which reviews the actual fatalities we dealt with in LA County the previous calendar year (usually 2-5 cases) looking at what happened, what the response was, what the lessons learned were, and what the official cause of death was.

Thanks for asking. And you felt this needed to be clarified . . . why????
 
If you fail to see that the goal of my original post was instructional - learn from the mistakes of others - perhaps you'd like to re-read it with that perspective in mind.

<big snip>

Thanks for asking. And you felt this needed to be clarified . . . why????

“Because ScubaBoard”.

Or, IOW, “because internet forum”.
 

Back
Top Bottom