When is a cave a cave?

[diver 85]

Seriously, did you mean to hit submit? I really don't care if you want to off yourself, but this crap is causing caves to get closed for the rest of us. Consider those of us who have taken the responsible route before you decide to be to promote untrained overhead diving, an activity proven to be deadly.

Cavern courses can be had for < $500, is it REALLY worth the risk?

Like I said, it's(Vortex Spring) nothing---but a cold water little dive.....Now maybe I dove the wrong thing---got into a little pond, went down into a hole(cavern??) with alot of water coming out---pushed my way into the vortex & saw the freshwater eels & a couple fish....Basically nothing---to it,...What did I miss....

Let's put it this away---that was 2000 I believe & I've yet to go back--there's alot better diving in the GOM--@ least something to see.....What do you see in a cave anyway, besides 4 walls & nothing else.....My swimming pool is more exciting @ times.......Give me a list of things I missed.You want to see what we see offshore under rigs & over saltdomes below La??...If so, I've got several albums online to fill some of your time......

 

[GLENFWB]

"Two people looked through the same bars....one saw the mud, the other saw the stars."

"Buzzards and humming birds both fly in the same sky, one looks for stinking rotting flesh, the other looks for the sweet nectar in flowers...BOTH birds find what they are looking for."

You found exactly what you wanted to see when you went in that "hole". I on the other hand see many beautiful things in caves....and I have albums with wonderful images. Enjoy your rig diving...but don't diminish the joy others find by diving in a different environment.

Oh yeah, and to your question "what did I miss?" The answer is simple....EVERYTHING!

Like I said, it's(Vortex Spring) nothing---but a cold water little dive.....Now maybe I dove the wrong thing---got into a little pond, went down into a hole(cavern??) with alot of water coming out---pushed my way into the vortex & saw the freshwater eels & a couple fish....Basically nothing---to it,...What did I miss....

Let's put it this away---that was 2000 I believe & I've yet to go back--there's alot better diving in the GOM--@ least something to see.....What do you see in a cave anyway, besides 4 walls & nothing else.....My swimming pool is more exciting @ times.......Give me a list of things I missed.You want to see what we see offshore under rigs & over saltdomes below La??...If so, I've got several albums online to fill some of your time......

 

[LiteHedded]

Those 'OW safe' caverns are just fine...until they aren't and someone gets hurt.

For those of you with selective memories, a few years back a woman lost her weights at the Ginnie Ballroom, got pinned to the ceiling and almost bit it.

Crystal clear water and shallow depths create a breeding ground for complacency. They are nothing to wag a finger at. I had 2 friends nearly die at Paradise spring (one of those OW safe places).

Discretion is the better part of valor.

yep
that dive was what made me get cave training

 

[LiteHedded]

Git wit it---it's nothing, @ least the Vortex Spring I dove years ago........Oh, be careful of the eels, they may bite----lol......


seriously, go for it....you're a certified diver.....

don't encourage others to go cave diving without training. you wanna go off yourself, fine. but don't encourage others to do it

 

[vladimir]

I'm a big fan of clever sarcasm--I use it myself quite a bit, although people will differ on the "clever" part. I'm not sure if diver 85 is being sarcastic or not. I'm sure RJP is. Either way, maybe we can all agree that threads like this one are the wrong place for clever sarcasm and everybody would be better off if we delivered a clear message, whatever our opinion.

I have been to the gate at Vortex, in 1978 or 1979. Maybe it was just a stop sign back then, I don't recall. I was an inexperienced diver, untrained for the environment, and poorly equipped. Whenever I read about some untrained idiot killing himself in a cave I say, "There but for the grace of God, go I."

 

[txapacheguy]

It's great to see you've made the decision to stay out of the overhead. Thank you! Have fun diving. Like Shane said, there's plenty to see without leaving open water. Vortex is very silty and I have come out of that cave and seen the silt stirred up by OW divers. They endangered me! But I bet that thought never even entered their minds. Get the training when you have the time and when you have your buoyancy down pretty good in a horizontal orientation.

That is the type of situation that I had in mind when I asked the question. Sometimes you don't know what you don't know... Your story, and that of the gentleman who had trouble finding his way out of Vortex, plus the lady who lost her weight belt and got pinned to the ceiling of Ginnie Springs are situations that I did not necessarily think about when I first asked for opinions on the issue, and was the feedback I was looking for.

I have friends with less experience than my wife and myself who have been in the cavern/cave at Vortex and go further into it than I was considering with no incident. When hearing them talk about it, I had a feeling that although they had a good time in this endeavor, they had perhaps made a bad choice. It was a choice I was not sure I cared to repeat.

There seem to be activities in the diving community that the certifying agencies promote and provide training for that is probably helpful to enhancing one's skills, and would certainly be enjoyable training to take, but probably not crucial to safety and perhaps mostly unnecessary by many folks' standards. It is obvious that when it comes to overhead environment though, that there is almost unanimous agreement on the issue, and I appreciate the candid opinions regarding it.

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

The cavern has been enlarged and is pretty much where you can mostly stay where light hits you and you can safely look around. The CAVE starts past the sign by the duck under after the big rock. It is CAVE from there to the grate and beyond. Beyond the sign you should stay out of unless trained as it is indeed a cave, and not a cavern. There have been several recoveries of dead divers in the cave. But, the cavern is pretty docile unless you have gas management issues or wander in the dark areas. My cavern (safety) opinion is not based on training, just the reality of the place. It is pretty to look at and even though you can get in trouble, you probably won't.

Since there are knuckleheads here, let me clarify my post, even tough I haven't been flamed for it. I am not condoning diving beyond limits. In reality each of us, that dive caverns and caves, saw something that piqued our interest and caused us to take the proper classes. As Shane stated, at the bottom of the buoy line, and as I said, still in the sunlight, you can see a very pretty cavern and maybe find a new interest. At that point, unless you are not monitoring you gas you should be able to view the cavern without being in an overhead and putting yourself in danger.

My first post was in response to the op, who seemed to want to know how to see a cavern without violating safey rules and another who seemed to think a cavern was the actual cave past the duck under and sign, which is not the truth at all, it is cave.

There are many wonderous things to see in caverns and caves, but not before training and then experience.

 

[Matt S.]

The question has been addressed pretty well but I will put in my two cents as an AOW diver.

I have over 100 dives and pretty darn good buoyancy skills (if I may toot my own horn). I am also very conservative, and I won't venture into an overhead environment. There are two exceptions.

1. I have done, and will do again, guided cavern dives. (Daylight zone, no farther than 200 ft from the entrance or whatever the rule is, cave-certified guide, line in place, etc)

2. On tropical vacations I have done a couple of short coral reef swim-throughs.

There are a lot of good reasons not to do either of those things, and I won't look down on any OW diver who decides not to try them.

Other than the above, I won't even do "easy" overhead like school buses or the covered walkways on the outside of wrecks.

When I was on vacation in Roatan, we had a sweet wreck to check out:

Wrongcrowd Gallery :: Coco View May 2009 :: cocoview_may2009_princealbert_mid

See the big holes cut in the deck? I could have dropped straight down, looked around, and ascended straight up without being in an overhead environment. I decided not to do that even though I am highly confident that I could do it without touching the sides or stirring up one grain of silt.

And I definitely would not venture into a cavern without the full guided tour ticket, not even a few feet.

I could do all these things and very probably get away with them my whole life. But I have decided where to draw the line and that's that. Just because you are comfortable doing something, that doesn't mean you are doing it well or that it is a good idea. And you don't know what you don't know.

This makes me more conservative than probably 90% of OW divers and I will miss seeing things because of it. I can live with that. If I really want to see them, I will get more training.

 

[chrispete]

My wife is not quite ready to venture into wreck or cave diving right now, so we will probably continue to build our experience and improve our skills.

My wife has nearly 300 dives and she's still deciding whether she feels ready for full-on cave diving. We're both basic cave certified and building experience before we take full cave. Take your time, the caves have been there for millennia and will be there for millennia to come. In other words, they'll be there when you have enough experience to go into them safely.

 

[Atomic_Diver]

Diver85+sarcasm= (and i am sure all cave divers will agree with me) what is considered to others (O/W divers) as "Big Boy" Syndrome (improper encouragement) and it states that right in the NSS-CDS Student Workbook.....