When is a cave a cave?

[Atomic_Diver]

you want to see a dang cave sooo bad than here you go:


YouTube - Diving Ginnie (Exit through Devil's Ear)


Enjoy

 

[Atomic_Diver]

heres another one... (Eagles Nest)


YouTube - Cave Diving Eagle's Nest

 

[tstormdiver]

Ahhhh... the memories......:cool2: Did that just a couple of weeks ago, continuing through my Full Cave course. The worst, but important part of that was having to run a primary reel through the ear. Going in that flow kicked my behind!:blinking: Coming out was all I could do to not get ahead of my reel. Ahhhhh... the sheer joy of it! I still think Ginnie is one of the prettiest caves, though my experience has only been with Ginnie, Peacock & Little River, so far. Makes me want to go back sooooooooo bad.......

 

[LiteHedded]

Ahhhh... the memories......:cool2: Did that just a couple of weeks ago, continuing through my Full Cave course. The worst, but important part of that was having to run a primary reel through the ear. Going in that flow kicked my behind!:blinking: Coming out was all I could do to not get ahead of my reel. Ahhhhh... the sheer joy of it! I still think Ginnie is one of the prettiest caves, though my experience has only been with Ginnie, Peacock & Little River, so far. Makes me want to go back sooooooooo bad.......

just get low and negative
there are no style points

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I know that there is a difference between cave and cavern diving, and also realize that Open Water and Advanced Open Water Divers are not supposed to venture into overhead environments without additional training by most folks standards.

I am wondering if "by most folks standards" should actually read "mostly by folks selling overhead courses" because if we say "most folks" includes all certified divers worldwide, I don't think "most folks" think every overhead environment requires additional training. Additional considerations should be made, but do "most folks" really think overhead training is required before entering the caverns mentioned in this thread; Vortex, Ginnie, Cathedrals, Cenotes?

My question pertains to where one draws the line in the sand as to when one must receive additional training for caverns, and what the limits of that training are.

IIRC, one agencies current Cavern limits are no deeper than 100' and no further from the surface than 200' (although I've also maybe seen "less than 200' penetration" which could be 300' from surface?). My old NSS Cavern Diving Manual listed these limits; you can always see the Entry/Exit, stay within 130 feet linear distance of the surface, no deeper than 70 feet, no passing through restrictions too small for two divers to swim through comfortably side by side, minimum visibility of 40 feet, stay well within no-deco limits (80%?) and sufficient air in each buddies cylinder for both to reach the surface on one cylinder. I believe the difference is my old manual was speaking of normal recreational outfitted cavern divers where newer definitions are geared more towards nearly cave outfitted cavern divers.

How stupid would two conventionally equipped AOW divers would be to venture several yards into a cavern such as the one in Vortex Springs??? I would never consider taking myself, or my wife into a cave without proper training and equipment, but would like to do a bit of sightseeing in what I believe to be a relatively safe environment.

In many locations worldwide OW and AOW divers with less than 20 dives are led through easy overheads (caverns and wrecks) every day. The diver below could be on her 6th dive ever, including cert dives, and is about to surge through the "restriction." Many see this as "no biggie."

​

 

[tstormdiver]

just get low and negative
there are no style points

Yeah, after fighting to get in, I would just unceremoniously "crash land" on the bottom & rest for a moment before tying the reel off to the main line. Secretly I think my instructor was getting a big kick out of it. Saw him flood his mask a time or 2 laughing at me.

 

[Atomic_Diver]

should anyone with <15 dives even be AOW certified???

 

[lord.harshil]

I was AOW certified with 11 dives. DM at 60.

I am a bit of a card chaser in that respect, its a bit of an ego boost for me. Yes yes, go ahead and laugh, I like being a patch diver (though my wing isnt full of PADI patches) and yes I am well aware of the "certified don't mean qualified". steve belinda was it? cant rmbr. the wahoo dude.

To me, number of dives does not equal diver skill. I have met DMs with reef destroying buoyancy, OWSI with a complete disregard for safety and cocky vacation divers who have apparently done more than 100 dives who might as well drown in the pool and save me the hassle of worrying about them. I have also met OW divers who managed to attain amazing buoyancy by their 5th dive.

If I had the option to go 50 feet inside a cavern, I probably would do so keeping in mind running a reel and basic practices like that. I'm not a cert cave diver and wont be for a while until i get to the training and there is no way i will do deep penetrations no matter how good i think i am or how much it may boost my ego. but 50 feet in a spacious cavern with a clear exit and a line doesnt seem like a stupid person rushing to his death to me.

 

[Meng_Tze]

...but 50 feet in a spacious cavern with a clear exit and a line doesnt seem like a stupid person rushing to his death to me.

Until they get caught up in the line, panic, drain their tank in 50 seconds and then drown.

I have several times now herded/led wide eyed, fast breathing OW divers out of a well known system. One in particular was stuck in the ceiling, had part of his line wrapped around him, the rest in the flow. He was in obvious panic when 'signaling' with his little pen light. He was less than 50 ft from the surface.

 

[Atomic_Diver]

haven't they heard of a Z knife, i think what really gets me laughing, and sad at the same time is seeing a O/W diver get himself into some of the most easiest things to get out of, and then not know what to do.... how one gets pinned to the celling i do not know, no where in any of my O/W (or Cave) certifications was i taught to ditch my weights in a tangled-line emergency, that would make things worse, i was taught to make 1 attempt to free my self, get help from my buddy(s), and as a last resort cut the line while everyone holds the end leading out, make an attempt to re-tie the line, exit the cave(rn) and notify anyone (cave instructor etc...) that the line has been cut..... One thing i will never forget is how a "Master" scuba diver managed to Jam my Dive Rite Classic Saftey reel, on my Wreck penetration class, it was the worst bird nest i had seen... he asked me how i prevent that and i told him Pratice Pratice Pratice, and that at least twice a week i pratice in my pool...