When is a cave a cave?

[DA Aquamaster]

There are some exceptions, such as the Ballroom at Ginnie Springs, where OW divers are allowed to dive in the cavern, but they usually have unique characteristics that are not common most caverns.

For example, Ginnie is:
1. gated off where it enters the cave so you can't go there,
2. has a very sandy bottom and a high flow rate so it is very unlikely to ever silt out,
3. has very clear water in general,
4. has very few areas where you cannot see daylight, and
5. has a fairly limited combination of depth and horizontal distance that limits penetration to a level that while not exactly "safe" in some circumstances, is less "scary" than the average cavern.

The point is don't go diving at Ginnie and then assume you woudl be safe diving in any other non "tourist" cavern without proper training. For example if you are in a cavern with 100 ft viz but a very silty bottom, and you stir it up with a fin kick - or if silt enters the cavern from deeper in the cave (or from the basin above the cavern in the case of a siphon) you may find suddenly find yourself in the dark and in zero viz and be unable to get out prior to running put of air.

 

[mike_s]

My wife and I are both Advanced Open Water divers, and are going to be diving at Vortex Springs in FL soon. I have read the warnings about cave diving, and believe that I adequately understand the dangers of this activity. I know that there is a difference between cave and cavern diving, and also realize that Open Water and Advanced Open Water Divers are not supposed to venture into overhead environments without additional training by most folks standards. My question pertains to where one draws the line in the sand as to when one must receive additional training for caverns, and what the limits of that training are. How stupid would two conventionally equipped AOW divers would be to venture several yards into a cavern such as the one in Vortex Springs??? I would never consider taking myself, or my wife into a cave without proper training and equipment, but would like to do a bit of sightseeing in what I believe to be a relatively safe environment. I have my nomex underwear on in preparation for the obligatory flaming, as I am somewhat new to this board in particular and the diving community in general, but I also appreciate everyone's opinions and expect to probably see replies to both extremes on this issue...

why not take the cavern course from an instructor (a good instructor) while in Vortex? Folks here can reccomend several good ones.

otherwise, if you're questioning your diving abilities on here.... you're likely to have hesitations/issues in the overhead environment, which is not a place to determine the outcome of those questions/issues.

Don't become a statistic. Even if you don't plan on doing a lot of other overhead/cavern environment diving, taking the cavern course from a good instructor will make you a better diver no matter where you are diving.

 

[Goindrinkn]

So to the folks with black and white opinions, Is your feeling that places like Ginnie, or Blue Grotto should not be open to anything less than cavern trained divers?

Personally I've always had an issue with the OW only requirement, as I don't think that someone that has only done their certification dives should run up and try to reach the grate in the ballroom. (if for no other reason than people may not realize how fast they are ascending as they follow the bottom.)

BUT... that being said, if I recall I did it after about 60 dives and a rescue class, but it was that bit of exposure that became a big part of the reason I continued on in my training.

Is there a better place to draw the line? I (being no one) would require at least AOW because even if we forget the ballroom is an overhead it is still very much "a night dive". I remember after the first time being in there my wife said to me, "It is nothing like the pictures I've seen. It was so dark! Where were the lights? "

 

[RJP]

Is there a better place to draw the line? I would require at least AOW because even if we forget the ballroom is an overhead it is still very much "a night dive".

Yup, 9 dives total, all with an instructor, sounds like enough experience and training to enter a cavern.

 

[tstormdiver]

Here is the voice of experience in exactly what you are describing. I went into The cave at Vortex a couple of years ago as an OW diver (DM) & almost wound up a statistic. The mistakes made were numerous. 1. (the biggie) going into an overhead environment with no training. 2. not running a guideline to the surface. Going in at dusk- It became dark while my buddy & I were inside. When my buddy & I were heading out, it was dark,... very dark. There was no moon, stars, streetlights; no lights visible at all. The black looked like the ceiling of the cave & the sheer walls of the depression looked like the sides of the cave. Even though my buddy & I were actually in open water, we didn't know it & made several trips back into the cave thinking we had gone the wrong way. After several minutes trying to figure things out, my buddy figured it out, & took off to shallower water, silting things out for a minute or 2 & leaving me. He tried to signal me, but his light was dimmer than mine & I couldn't see it. I probably swam around for a few more minutes before I finally saw his light & made my way towards the surface. When I returned home, my instructor (also a cave instructor) had already heard about it & chewed my butt out..... I deserved it, no doubt. He hit the nail on the head when he said,"going into a cave is a deceptively easy way to die". I will say that the almost tragic adventure sparked my curiosity, but it also shook me up bad enough to know that it was deadly serious. I decided that if I am going to explore these regions I'm going to do it the right way,.... through proper & rigorous training. I am currently Intro to Cave & have nearly completed my Full Cave.

 

[ucfdiver]

Is there a better place to draw the line?

Yup. I'll draw u a diagram of the Ginnie Ballroom.

Here's why-
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/244949-2-flies-ceiling-panic.html

 

[TSandM]

I think this is a lot like the arguments about the cenote tours in Mexico. If you want to be really rigorous, open water trained divers do not belong in overhead environments, period. But how many of us swam through arches or into and out of prepared stuff in quarries before we got overhead trained? Could you get trapped inside a school bus? I suppose you probably could, but it's unlikely. Could you get trapped in the Ballroom? Someone did, and died, but it's certainly infrequent. Nevertheless, no overhead environment is a good place for a novice diver, someone with buoyancy issues, or someone who has no idea how they react when things go sideways.

Guided tours, carefully done by trained people, have proven themselves (at least in Mexico) to be pretty safe, and do give folks a first taste of what lies in store if they do pursue training.

On the other hand . . . there's a really scary story out there, which I can't find today, about a guy who swam into a small cavern area off the open water part of a spring, and silted it out and got turned around, and even though the opening was enormous, he couldn't find it, and was pretty terrified by the time he blundered out. As the videos on Rob Neto's site point out, swimming into a cave untrained is a deceptively simple way to die. Hazards of cave environments include silt and reduced visibility, as well as complex navigation and the fact that the surface is not an option for someone who has a problem or simply decides they want OUT.

 

[ucfdiver]

lynne-

Is this what you're looking for?
911 Show About OW Divers in Caves
Part 1-
YouTube - Rescue 911 - Episode 202 - "Scuba Cave" (Part 1 of 2)
Part 2-
YouTube - Rescue 911 - Episode 202 - "Scuba Cave" (Part 2 of 2)

Or this-
A deceptively easy way to die
YouTube - A deceptively easy way to die

 

[Atomic_Diver]

Cavern Limits:


For a head start in exploring the underworld, here’s a look at what it takes to be a cavern diver.

Few diving experiences compare with finning to the mouth of an underwater cavern or cave, putting your hands on the lip and peering into an open chamber filled with formations, shafts of light streaming from holes in ceiling, illuminating sections and leaving others draped in shadow. The names of such places—the Cathedral, the Ball Room—barely do them justice in their attempts to capture these images. All dive-training agencies have limits in place regarding divers’ access to overhead environments—and for good reason. “Since the 1970s, more than 600 divers have died in overhead environments,” says Jeff Bauer, President of the National Association of Cave Diving (NACD). “And most of those deaths happened because the divers didn’t have the appropriate training.” But with the right training, you can add a whole new dimension to your diving adventures. The first step is a cavern-diver course; most recreational dive-training agencies offer this class in a form derived from the curriculum taught by cave-diving organizations NACD and the Cave Diving Section of the National Speleological Society (NSS-CDS). These classes provide the knowledge and techniques needed for limited penetration into overhead environments, they introduce you to new types of equipment, and they help fast track development of the most vital underwater skills—like buoyancy, trim, air consumption, swimming techniques and safety procedures.

Defining “Cavern,” and Course Prerequisites

Different training agencies have slightly different definitions for what constitutes a “cavern” dive, but generally, across all agencies, it is defined as a dive in an overhead environment—like the mouth of a cave—where two divers can easily swim side-by-side and remain within the natural light zone. “You have to stay within the daylight zone,” says John Jones, training director for NSS-CDS. “In our courses, we also specify a maximum depth of 100 feet, and cavern divers can’t go more than 200 linear feet from the surface.”

The experience level required to enroll in a cavern course also varies among agencies, but in most cases, an Advanced certification and/or 15 to 20 logged dives are a minimum. More important, students in a cavern course need to demonstrate above average buoyancy control; cavern instructors will evaluate students during an open-water dive before going into the cavern to make sure each diver is ready to go inside. “A couple of times I’ve had to tell students, ‘you need to go practice buoyancy and come back,’” Jones says. “But probably 95 out of 100 divers make it through the class.”

The Gear

Because cavern dives are defined as within recreational diving limits, they can be made with recreational dive gear. “We try to give divers a taste of the methods we use as technical divers without them having to buy a whole lot of extra gear,” Bauer says. “In a cavern class, it’s OK for them to use their standard open-water BCs, single tanks, all the stuff they’re used to—obviously they don’t need their snorkels though, because you can’t come straight to the surface and it’s an added entanglement risk.”

Dive Lights
You stay within the sunlight zone, but to see every crack and crevice along the way, you need to throw some beams of your own. Bring at least two. For cavern diving, standard night-diving gear will do the trick, Jones says. “If you’re set up to night dive, with the standard primary and small secondary for backup, you’re alright for cavern diving,” he explains. However, cylinder-shaped lights, or lantern-grips, are the best choices because it’s easier to handle a reel and guideline with one of those than with a pistol-grip light. And if you really want to illuminate like a caver, pack a hand-mounted light attached to a large battery canister, which is generally mounted on the waistband of a harness or on your tank band. “I’ll usually let students borrow one of my canister lights,” Bauer says. “Just so they can get the feel for a brighter light that attaches to their hand.”

Reels
All recreational cavern courses include basic line-laying techniques. Even within the light zone, a misplaced fin kick or a bad-buoyancy crash on the bottom can blow out the vis. And when you can’t see, a reel literally acts as your lifeline back to the exit. At minimum, each diver in a cavern course needs a small safety reel, and each buddy team needs one primary reel.

Cavern Skills


Buoyancy
The first order of business in a cavern course is to figure out the ideal weight each diver should carry. “Most people come to us overweighted, so we help the students find the perfect amount of weight they need,” Jones says. “Generally, we take four or five pounds of weight off every student in a cavern class. I don’t even remember how much weight I had on when I took my cavern course, but from what I learned in that class, and after switching to steel tanks, I got rid of my weight belt entirely.” Ideally, cavern divers can hover motionless in the water and effortlessly maintain a proper swimming attitude. This is critical because if you float too high, you ram into the ceiling; drift too low and you kick up the bottom. Either move can turn gin-clear water into silt-choked sludge in seconds.

Weight Redistribution
The problem with a normal recreational dive setup is that all your weights hang around your waist, and you compensate with air at your shoulders. This puts you in a poorly streamlined, head-up/feet-down position, requiring more energy (and air) to move through the water, and increasing your chances of kicking up silt along the bottom. Once you know how much (or little) weight you need, distributing it properly greatly improves your trim. In a cavern course, you get a chance to think outside the pouch. Integrated BCs have trim pockets in the back that help move some lead higher up on your body, and your cavern instructor may also attach small weights at your shoulders, Jones explains. Making the switch to steel tanks—which, unlike aluminum tanks, are negatively buoyant—helps you eliminate extra bricks all together. And though it’s not required in a cavern course, upgrading your BC to a tech-style backplate and wing also adds inherent weight along your torso, eliminating even more lead bricks.

Laying a Line
You’ll practice line techniques on land and in open water with your buddy before laying one out in a cavern. “They’ll learn how to tie off a reel to a fixed object and how to route the line on the bottom so it doesn’t get trapped or wrapped up easily,” Bauer says. This task is surprisingly difficult for the uninitiated. You have to run the reel with your buddy so it can be followed in zero visibility without getting tangled and while also holding a light and maintaining perfect buoyancy. You’ll also practice following a guideline—with your eyes closed to simulate blackout conditions—both as a normal buddy team and while donating and receiving an alternate air-source with your buddy to simulate a worst-case emergency scenario. “It really teaches you how to multitask,” Jones says. “It’s probably the most intense two- to three-day course you’ll ever take.”

Gear Configuration
Redistribute your weight, reroute hoses, reverse fin straps and make sure no accessories are dangling. Why? Because anything that dangles can foul the guideline. “Everything should be secured,” Bauer says. “At the cavern level, I’ll make sure divers clip consoles across their chests, replace the lanyards on their lights with clips and duct tape fin straps down.” The end result is a streamlined package that not only minimizes tangles but that also helps you move smoothly through the water. “The nice thing about the cavern class is that the environment usually teaches this stuff for me,” Bauer adds. “I can point out things that need to be reconfigured, but when the divers go down and get tangled in the line, they quickly realize the importance of getting rid of any dangling equipment.”

The Kicks
Streamlined movements and strong, efficient fin strokes that don’t kick up the bottom are key in caverns. First up: The frog kick. Keep your knees bent, and start by spreading your feet apart with the narrow side of the fin cutting through the water. Then turn your ankles so the bottoms of your fins face each other, and bring the fins together like two hands clapping. This pushes the water between the blades and directly behind you, unlike a flutter kick, which forces water up and down, possibly stirring up the bottom. Next lesson: Mastering the fin turn. Instead of flapping your hands to turn your body, a few well-placed fin flicks can spin you in the right direction with less effort and less vis-destroying turbulence. To do this, float motionless in the water in a normal, face-down swimming position, but with the knees slightly bent. Imagine your navel as a pivot point, and turn your body with short, inward flicks of the foot opposite the side you want to turn to—i.e., use the right foot to turn left and vice versa.

Can’t-Miss Cavern Dives


Gran Cenote, Riviera Maya: The systems of cenotes that perforate the land along Mexico’s Yucatan coast comprise the largest underwater cave systems in the world, and cave divers flock from around the world to dive here. But you don’t need to be a full-fledged cave diver to experience some of the best Riviera Maya has to offer. Gran Cenote, one of the most popular, starts in an open chamber accessible even to snorkelers and the mouth of the cave provides perfect conditions for cavern diving.

Ginnie Springs, Fla.: Second only to the cave systems at Riviera Maya, the underwater rivers that make up Florida’s spring systems are an equally great place to get your cavern diving fix. Ginnie Springs features a wide-open chamber called the Ballroom, and metal grating blocks passage to the deeper, more dangerous parts of the cave.

The Cathedrals, Maui, Hawaii: For a cavern experience that’s totally different than those offered in Mexico and Florida, check out the lava formations of the Aloha State. Two of the most famous cavern dives here are Cathedral One and Two, off the island of Lanai. Both feature wide-open chambers, dramatic rock formations against a backdrop of blue water and multiple entry and exit points.

 

[Atomic_Diver]

From NSS-CDS website:



Cavern Diver: This course develops the minimum skills and knowledge for cavern diving, and describes the dangers involved with cave diving. Planning, environment, procedures, techniques, problem solving, and other specialized needs of cavern diving are covered. Problem solving in cavern diving includes, but is not limited to: body positioning (trim), buoyancy control, emergency procedures, line following, and propulsion techniques. Accident analysis forms the basis of this learning experience. Special emphasis on the unique environment includes silting, entanglement, disorientation, and equipment modifications. The Cavern Diver Course is in no way intended to provide instruction for cave diving.
This course level is an entry level program for those interested in cave diving, and is also a safety program for open water divers. It can be combined with the Basic Cave Diver course.

Basic Cave Diver: This course covers the basic principles of actual cave diving. Accident analysis forms the basis of the training. Basic Cave Diver follows the Cavern Diver course as the Cave Diving Section's second step in the development of safe techniques for cave diving. The basis of this course is aimed at perfecting basic skills and the mastering of techniques and procedures required for the most elementary of cave dives. Cave dives are planned around very limited penetrations so that the diver may progress into cave diving at a conservative pace. The Basic Cave Diver course is not intended to train divers for all facets of cave diving.
This course develops the minimum skills and knowledge required for limited penetration cave diving. Dive planning, cave environment, procedures, techniques, problem solving, and other specialized needs of cavern/cave diving are covered.
This course level can also be combined with the Cavern Diver course.

Apprentice Cave Diver: This is the third in a series of cave diver development training courses. Emphasis is upon dive planning and skill perfection through actual cave dives. Techniques learned through the earlier Basic Cave Diver and Cavern Diver courses are critiqued and expanded. Exposure to different cave-diving scenarios is the foundation of this training.
The Apprentice Cave Diver course level represents the first half of the training ultimately required to complete the Cave Diver level, and is not intended to prepare divers for evaluating all facets of cave diving; a time-limited training card is issued upon completion. It is intended to expose students to basic fundamental principles of cave diving. Students are encouraged to move on to the next level of training before attempting to plan and execute complex cave dives.
The Apprentice Cave Diver course can be combined with the Cave Diver course.

Cave Diver: This is the fourth in a series of cave diver development training courses. Exposure to more sophisticated cave-diving scenarios is the foundation of this training. Complex cave dive planning and execution is emphasized. Techniques learned during the previous training levels are refined in more challenging cave diving environments. The basics of underwater cave surveying are introduced.
This course level can also be combined with the Apprentice Cave Diver course.

Stage Diving: This is a specialty course level, intended to help develop the participant's skills and knowledge in extended penetration diving with the use of a stage cylinder. Longer decompression and more complex navigation concerns are covered.

DPV Pilot: The purpose of the DPV (Diver Propulsion Vehicle) Pilot specialty course is to expose the trained cave diver to the basic fundamentals of the safe operation of diver propulsion vehicles in underwater caves while under the direct supervision of a qualified DPV Pilot Instructor. The student is able to build practical experience in the field under controlled conditions. Safety practices, procedures and techniques common to most DPV's used in the unique environment of a cave are covered. Conservation considerations such as low-impact operation are emphasized. Potential emergency situations are simulated and practiced.

Sidemount Diving: A specialty course level, designed to expose the experienced cave diver to alternative cylinder and harness configurations when back-mounted cylinders are not appropriate or available.

Basic U/W Cave Surveying: A specialty course level, designed to provide the participants with the fundamentals of surveying underwater caves. It is intended to motivate more divers to survey caves, to encourage the use of cave maps in dive planning, and to increase the quantity of published cave maps. Additionally, this program is to promote standardization for all survey projects.

Cartography: This specialty program is a data management-oriented program and is designed to introduce the basics of underwater cave map presentations. The goal of this program is to develop an ability to complete the surveying and map-making process and actually produce a map.

Recovery Diver: The Recovery Diver Program is a specialty two-part program. The first part is a management-oriented program as described in the Recovery Specialist. The second part introduces Procedures, Techniques, and Equipment required for the extraction or rescue of a diver/divers lost in a cave. This program requires land drills and in-water training.

Deep Cave Diver: The purpose of the Deep Cave Diver course is to provide the Cave Diver training for the safe planning and execution of mixed gas diving in caves to depths not exceeding three hundred (300) fsw/ninety (90) msw. The diver will be introduced to the proper and safe use of helium as a breathing gas, along with oxygen and nitrox for staged decompression. This course will emphasize precision and accuracy in all aspects of the dive beginning with advanced pre-dive planning. Safety will be a primary focus of this course due to the depths to which dives will be made.

Overhead Nitrox Diver: The purpose of the Overhead Nitrox Diver course is to provide divers with the basic knowledge and skills necessary to safely use enhanced air nitrox (Nitrox) as a breathing medium. The course covers the use of Nitrox mixtures with an oxygen content ranging from twenty two percent (22%) to forty percent (40%) and may be taught as a single specialty or combined with other NSS-CDS courses.

Rebreather Cave Diver: The purpose of the Rebreather Cave Diver specialty course is to provide divers with the basic knowledge and skills necessary to safely utilize rebreathers (either semi-closed or fully-closed) in overhead environments while under the supervision of a Rebreather Cave Diver Specialty Instructor. The diver will be exposed to the special hazards involved in using rebreathers in overhead environments, as well as the techniques and procedures used to mitigate the risks to a reasonable level. The program will also instruct candidates in how to plan overhead environment dives with open circuit dive partners.