Whats wrong with DIR

[cornfed]

chrpai once bubbled...
So does that mean all other sites that are DIR only ( if any ) are a direct result of pressure from the DIR crowd?

What sites are DIR only?

 

[MHK]

Kane, have you talked with lawmakers in California or anywhere else on scuba-related issues?

Yes, I have spoken with lawmakers on scuba related issues.. Laguna Beach has a local ordinance that requires the use of a snorkel. Many of us feel that is a ridiculous law so we are working to try to change it. Short of that the only other lawmaker(s) that I've spoken to on scuba issue(s) has been Councilman Don Knobee and Congresswoman Jane Harman in an effort to sink an artificial reef similiar to the Yukon..

Do you deny that you've promoted the idea that "diving DIR" would have prevented some people's deaths out there, recently, to the point of, in some people's opinion, dancing on gravestones?

I don't deny that one bit as I feel strongly that I'm right in that regard.. I'd also like to point out the hypocrsiy in your argument, in this paragraph you suggest that I've danced on gravestones as support of my position, but later down in your post you suggest I don't support my position. Accordingly when the "proof" is a dead body and it's used to support the premise it's dancing on a grave.. But then absent the use of the victims you claim we don't offer support for the argument.. Which is it??

Do you deny that you attempted, in the last couple of months, to portrey solo diving as extremely dangerous, but failed to point out that as a percentage of all deaths over the period in which you cited, it did not amount to a statistically-significant percentage of the total, and further, your stats included UNINTENTIONAL solo divers - in fact, nearly ALL of your "solo fatalities" were UNINTENTIONALLY solo!

I don't deny it all that I've portrayed solo diving as an unnecessary increase of risk, nor do I deny that I believe it adds an added danger and/or complexity to a dive. I deny none of that because I firmly believe it.. Moreover, the solo -v- unintended buddyless debate is a red-herring used to misdirect the salient issue which is team diving. We've had an unprecedented number of fatalities both intended solo and unintended solo divers, several of which I did the body recoveries of.. I don't need to bolster my facts because they speak for themselves.. Last year we averaged over one fatality a month in SoCal alone, the majority where without a buddy at the time they died. You, and a few other's, prefer to worry about what label you could attach to the victim at the time of death rather then focus on the salient issue, which is at the time assistance was needed no one was around to help. Whether he was solo, buddyless, independant diver or whatever other label you guys can dream up is beyond the scope of importance because the diver is still dead, and no one was around to help.. To the extent an emphasis on team diving can help prevent future fatalities you can continue to bet that I'll speak out against the practice..

Do you deny that when called on the above, you went oddly silent and refused to support your claim?

I do deny this accusation. I no longer enjoy posting to rec.scuba, scubadivernet.com or the diver.net/bbs.. Those unmoderated forums or the selective moderation of one of them no longer provide enjoyment for me. It's too easy to invent a sockpuppet, attack and have no basis for reference. Once it stopped being fun for me, I walked away. I stand behind my issues, but what I will no longer do is get dragged into debates with sockpuppets.. If you think that means I went oddly silent and refused to support my position, well then once again I'll be up all night worrying about what you think..

How many dots do I need to connect?

How about we start with one sensible one and then we can go from there

Has GUE's attempt to close dive sites been limited to Wakulla? 'Fess up Mike - has anyone from GUE tried to close any OTHER sites? And why close Wakulla? Have priority over it, ok. But CLOSE IT to non-WKPP members? Why?

As far as I know I believe Wakulla and perhaps Sally Ward, but Chickdiver can say more certain then I could.. You ask why?? Because the WKPP is working with NSS and the state of Florida for important research projects. For example last weekend, in a joint effort with the NSS, they put in flow meter's and several other environmental tools to help gather information about the protection and preservation of the environment. Many of these projects involve time consuming set up's that require stage bottles, scooters and a whole host of other support tools be precisely placed at very strategic points days, if not weeks, in advance. Divers lives depend on those bottles and/or scooters being in precise places. Unlimited access to those projects creates an unacceptable safety risk that an unknowing diver could move, steal or otherwise remove a life saving piece of equipment..

Let's be honest here Mike. Do you REALLY support my right to dive as I wish? Or would you REALLY like to see it be illegal - not just a violation of your agency standard, but actually against the law - for me to get in my boat and head off to have a nice solo dive tomorrow morning?

You seem to think that I give one iota about how you dive.. I don't.. The only people I care about are the guys that I dive with, any student that wants to take a class from me and/or anyone that wants more information about what or how we do what we do.. I don't care what you do so long as you aren't diving with me..

If you really support my right to dive as I wish, then why all the public pontification and back-door activity in advocacy of exactly the opposite? [/B]

What back door advocacy??? I'm as public as could possibly be, if you don't know where I stand by now you never will.. As for public pontification, do a few body recoveries or speak to the family members of the bodies that you've recovered and then talk to me about public pontification.. When you meet a wife or a mother, or a child before a dive and the absolute best thing that they are hoping and praying for is that you find a dead body and bring it back to them, then perhaps you'll understand why I'm less tolerant and less patient when it comes to diving practices that increase risk..

I've answered everyone of your questions, so why not answer one of mine.. Why do you care at all how GUE runs it's organization?? You'll never take a class of ours so they have no relevance to you whatsoever, so other then public posturing what does it matter to you???

Later

 

[cornfed]

Mike,

Maybe Karl wants your permission to dive the way he does. Maybe if you tell him it's ok to spear fish solo he might shut up. It's worth a try...

 

[Scubamedicjoe]

Genesis
What has crawled up your butt and bit you, you seem to pro negative against about everything. Your against equipment manufactures against GUE what are you not against.
Now this is how I see GUE and the DIR.
First let me say I had my first DIR-F class this past summer my instructors wear Dave sweeten and Tyler moon, both very excellent instructors and very excellent divers.
First the buoyancy was superb; they could stay in one place do turns other than the turn would be ideally right spot wear they started. I have been diving for many years and never have seen any other agency talk about how important buoyancy control was not PADI, SSI, Naui, and even old Nasds . I have taken open water, advance open water, wreck, deep, photo, nitrox , advance buoyancy class, , and not one of them class's did they help us, yes they talked about it even told us what could be done but none of them ever went into the depth or degree of practicing and making sure we had it down !!
I found that other than the equipment configurations and equipment changes ,this class was all about making you a better diver, over and over it was about US the divers not GUE.
This was my first time with a back plate and wing and even the long hose, what I found out was there are many ways to dive and many were to improve your diving. They stressed if we got nothing more out of this class was safety, before we left almost all of had improved in our buoyancy control, learned a alternative way to share air, and some different kicks which I feel helps in allot of situations I.E. not stirring up the bottom, again they didn't stress this was the only way just one way that could improve our Diving, this I feel the DIR-F class is about Improving skills that’s what I truly got out the DIR-F class.
As far as not smoking that is an issue you have to take up with the organization.
As far as fitness swim I think it’s an excellent idea, now let me give you the Kicker
I am not DIR certified why because I didn’t pass the swim test, do I blame them NO was my own fault , I have always been a weak swimmer and little over weight most likely didn’t help either , both I am working on with help of Divefitness.com and local Gym .
I am a very good diver and very safety oriented , but I do feel the DIR-F class did improve my skills , IE with multi tasking how many of you have tried having your mask taken off and have to inflate a lift bag , clear you mask and stay at same spot .
This is part of the skills you learn and practice , this in the long run will make and will help you in your diving; if you are a wreck diver this can only improve you're diving.
I know some of these fools hear are going to tear this apart, with spelling grammer ECT but don’t give a dam, I know what I learned in the DIR-F class and have nothing to say but praise on the class and the training, maybe as I continue to improve my skills and weight control and get into better shape they will let me finally make the Grade which I will be proud to hold!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And this come from someone who was totally against it that is why I took the class to Prove them wrong well actually they proved me wrong!!!

 

[chickdiver]

For the record.... the WKPP did not "close" Wakulla, Sally Ward (which is on the Wakulla State Park prperty), or any of the other numerous sites in the WKP (Woodville Karst Plain). These sites were already closed, and we petitioned the owners for access to them. Access was granted under extremely tight parameters, under which WKPP operates, which include legitimate scientific exploration in the areas of Hydrology an Zoology among others. I have no idea whether other groups have petitioned for access to these sites, other than the Wakulla 2 Project.

 

[cornfed]

Thanks, CD. Sorry for opening that can of worms.

 

[FredT]

Spectre once bubbled...
Spearfishing was brought up, and I wanted to try and figure out where the problem with spearfishing is and if that problem can be corrected.

The whole point is there is nothing specific about 'spearfishing' that makes it intrinsically non DIR. It's that there are risks that people choose to accept rather than look to see if there is a safer way to do them.

I know Dan Volker from years gone by and I am well aware he spearfishes in a DIR rig. He just does it in diffferent circumstances (i.e. deep on mix or "deep" freediving) and for generally smaller target fish.

We DO look for ways to minimize the risk out there that don't involve sitting on deck. Thus the riding rig on the gun, generally NDL bounded dives, and a shedable harness with a single shoulder release. Unlike cave and wreck penetration there is always the up option in unencumbered free ascent mode for self-rescue if away from your buddy. OTOH anything dropped on a rig is usually gone for good.

If the DIR crew has worked out other methods I'd sure like to try them. I did not intend to start an argument!

FT

 

[O-ring]

Painter and Genesis...get a freakin clue before you start running off at the mouth again. You have both been given numerous chances to bow out of this debate but it almost seems like you are determined to keep making yourselves look more and more idiotic. Were you aware that you have to be an NSS-CDS member to access certain dive sites? OMG! A conspiracy!

Why are you only focusing on DIR/GUE? Because you are rabid anti-DIR zealots that have no other agenda here other than to bash GUE/DIR. The whole bull**** with boat access rights STARTED UP HERE when NE boats were denying GUE certs! Do you guys even dive? How can you profess to have this much knowledge about these topics yet be so one-sidedly clueless?

Debate about DIR/GUE all you want but this spreading of lies and misinformation is truly doing the diving community a disservice, IMO.

 

[ScoobyPat]

I am looking forward to my DIR class, exacly because of medic13 statements. Not because I want to be an 'elite' diver, but I want to make the most of the limited time that I can't spend underwater while teaching me techniques and procedures that enable me and my buddy to handle close calls.

Do I need to take dive DIR to enjoy diving? Certainly not. It is something that I choose, because it makes sense to me.

Diving is a risky sport that requires a certain level of fitness, experience and proper education. I would live to become an expert on buoyancy control to not endanger myself or others. I would like to learn about valve drills, because they might come in handy and possibly could save my life. Do I agree with gear requirements? I don't know. I can evaluate that for myself by trying. Theoretically it make sense to me.

Don't be the judge on something that you haven't tried. If it doesn't make sense to others - fine, but don't discriminate. Do I have a right to say that NAUI blows without having had a single course with them? I don't think so.

This entire discussion doesn't serve any purpose. Earlier I asked if DIR would be appropriate for recreational diving and it turned out to be a religious discussion. There is and will never be a best solution, but maybe a better one based on your personal preference.

It is like disliking peanut butter without having tasted it.

:bah:

BTW, has ever someone thought about creating a DIR forum in here?

 

[Genesis]

We've had an unprecedented number of fatalities both intended solo and unintended solo divers, several of which I did the body recoveries of.. I don't need to bolster my facts because they speak for themselves.. Last year we averaged over one fatality a month in SoCal alone, the majority where without a buddy at the time they died. You, and a few other's, prefer to worry about what label you could attach to the victim at the time of death rather then focus on the salient issue, which is at the time assistance was needed no one was around to help. Whether he was solo, buddyless, independant diver or whatever other lable you guys can dream up is beyond the scope of importance because the diver is still dead, and no one was around to help.. To the extent an emphasis on team diving can help prevent future fatalities you can continue to bet that I'll speak out against the practice..

You haven't had any such thing. That is a FLAT LIE.

Fewer than ONE HUNDRED divers cap themselves while practicing this sport every year. That number has not materially changed over the time that DAN has been keeping statistics.

You continually twist around the truth by omission, which is that nearly all of the fatalities you cite above that were solo were unintentionally solo.

Now, if you'd quit beating that drum so hard, you might actually recognize some facts, like:

1. An UNINTENTIONAL solo caused by someone being FORCIBLY paired in the shop or on the dive boat, as opposed to diving on their own, means they PROBABLY aren't equipped with BASIC redundancy - like a pony or doubles. An INTENTIONAL solo diver almost certainly has one of the above. Lots of gas enables solution of MOST problems without an accident. Constrained gas supply tends to kill people when the water turns brown.

2. A HEART ATTACK or EMBOLISM underwater will be 99% fatal IRRESPECTIVE of how many of those divers are solo or with a buddy - or even a DIR buddy. You cannot perform CPR in the water, nor can you use an AED. Without one of the two inside of 10 minutes from the onset of a heart attack, YOU ARE DEAD FOR CERTAIN, and even CPR is unlikely to save you. An AED might. In terms of statistics, here's one that you don't like but that I've quoted to you before and you've intentionally ignored - your odds of survival of a coronary event drop by 10% for every minute that ALS (that is, an ADVANCED paramedic unit) is delayed from reaching you. Now Mike, would you care to pontificate on what the odds are of reaching ALS assistance within those 10 minutes in any diving situation? You have, effectively, VERY close to ZERO CHANCE of survival of this event. Then again, your odds aren't much better at home - better than 75% of all initial coronary events are fatal IN THE LIVING ROOM! (See above for why) Heart attacks are not properly a "diving" fatality; you'd get the same mortality on the golf course or, most likely, in your living room. Without immediate recompression, an embolism in the cranial circulation is nearly ALWAYS fatal.

Let's look at 2001 - 77 deaths. Dig into the report, and you find some interesting things.

First, cardio and embolism problems were cited in 23 of the cases. Entrapment/lost in an overhead environment was responsible for 12. "Other" is a huge number, encompassing all kinds of bizarre stuff, and accounted for 30 cases. Finally, running out of air accounts for 11.

Even a cursory analysis discovers that neither the cardio or embolism events would have materially different outcomes with a "DIR buddy". Those lost/entrapped would be likely to be (and in fact most were) double-fatalities - both buddies died - which means that diving as a team actually increases the number of people who die when something goes wrong.

So we have 35 of the 77 initially who would either have no outcome change with "DIR Diving", or actually killed more people diving as a "team."

Now the "running out of air" people obviously would have benefitted from a second diver around with some gas. So I'll give you 11 of the 77. On the "other" category there are some truly bizarre things - about half of them would have benefitted from a "DIR buddy", and half would not have, although some DID have a buddy (and one or both died anyway.) So let's give 'ya half of those as beneficial.

So let's see where we are.

We have 77 deaths. 35 of them definitely had either a worse outcome (more dead) or no change due to a buddy or lack thereof. Another 15 had no change or a worse outcome in the "other" category, for a total of 50 where there either was no benefit to a real dive buddy, or a negative impact to having one with you.

The remaining divers, all 27 of them, either had a buddy who was ineffective in resolving the problem (wasn't a "DIR buddy") or were diving solo, intentionally or not, and would have likely not died if they had a "DIR buddy" who could have rendered effective assistance of some kind.

Is this material? Well I'm sure it is if you are one of the brothers of a dead diver, but is it statistically significant, given the number of dives actually made and the overall mortality rate?

Look Mike, if the standard is that one death is too many, then we may as well ban diving TOMORROW.

Clearly, that isn't the standard. So what is?

I argue that the clear statistical evidence is that the DIR system does not and can not materially "help" people avoid death while diving, in that the number of divers who croak as a consequence of BEING the buddy of someone who dies is relatively close to those who would not have died if they HAD a DIR-style buddy.

The facts simply don't bear out your claims and NEVER HAVE.

THIS is the crux of my problem with the pontificating that you do on this issue. The fact that you are so blinded by the zealotry of your view that you refuse to actually analyze the facts and allow them to speak for themselves. Instead, you twist the truth around to fit a preconceived notion, ignore anyone who tries to put out the facts in front of your nose, and continue to chant the mantra - even as the Emporer is standing around naked INSISTING that he has clothes on.

When Joe Schmoe does this who cares? When an instructor and someone with credentials does this in a public forum its a problem; it can be and often is cited for increasing government regulation and loss of freedom.

You want to know why I care, this is why. It is that the incessant pontification by you, GI (now departed, so I assume that will stop) and others "involved" in the GUE advocacy process that bother me, when the facts simply don't support the claims.

Some of that will draw a response, but only one - like your claim that somehow the other agency programs are responsible for the high "drop out" rate, and comparing diving to skiing. That's so silly as to be rediculous, and has to be a result of willful blindness - as I pointed out.

But when we are talking about diving fatalities, and claims are being made of differences in safety, I argue that before some agency takes a position, either officially or through their spokespeople (named or defacto), the ducks had better all be lined up in a nice, neat row, and the statistical evidence had better be clear before the claims are made - because the outcome of such pontifications is often intervention and interference with freedom.