Whites Drywear heading in the wrong direction

[happy-diver]

I thinned this stuff out

and brushed it on here

rubberising my feet

 

[happy-diver]

also let's hope Whites avoid reinvigorating this sheissdreck

that I had to uninvigorate

schmick schmick scmick

 

[Zef]

also let's hope Whites avoid reinvigorating this sheissdreck

View attachment 859819

that I had to uninvigorate

View attachment 859820

schmick schmick scmick

Could you elaborate what was wrong and what you did to fix?

-Z

 

[happy-diver]

The huge round plastic inflexible cuff is too big on the outside and too small on the inside
It's untidy with the sealing tape hardened jagged and sharp from the heat used to apply it

Enter the condensed flexible oval cuff from Sitech applied using a two pack vinyl boat glue

SiTech QCS OVAL Set (Silicon Seal) for DIY fitting - Seaskin Drysuits Shop - Purchase Drysuit Supplies

The QCS Oval cuff ring system has an oval and narrow design and you will not be bothered by the rings during the dive or on land as some poeple find the Purchase SiTech QCS OVAL Set (Silicon Seal) for DIY fitting from Seaskin - drysuit supplies made to order directly from the factory.

seaskin.co.uk

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

I have been a dealer for Whites Drywear since 2005, witnessing the transition through the acquisition by Aqualung and continuing to support the brand now that it operates independently again. Over the years, I have sold well over 1,000 of their suits and have extensive experience repairing suits from various manufacturers.
I would like to offer some insights on the recent comments regarding Whites Drywear products:

1. AirCore vs. DryCore: The AirCore material has shown to be quite fragile and prone to leaking, regardless of whether it was manufactured in Mexico or Canada. Breathable suits, in general, tend to be more susceptible to leaking compared to other styles, and I would not describe the breathable material as “sturdier.” This view isn't just from the aircore, but all breathable suits from multiple manufacturers.
2. Rapid Zip System: All Whites Drywear suits utilize the Rapid Zip System, which is detailed on their website.
3. Si-Tech Neck Tite System: According to Whites Drywear, the Si-Tech Neck Tite System is currently undergoing field testing, and preliminary results are promising. They prioritize thorough testing to ensure product reliability before release, setting them apart from some competitors. We install a TON of the newer systems, and I agree they could have been a little quicker to adapt, but Whites just came back....so, they had a few years away and not building suits. It's OK to have a slower and more methodical approach. This is what made Whites so dominate in the past.

I hope this information is helpful.

 

[Zef]

I have been a dealer for Whites Drywear since 2005, witnessing the transition through the acquisition by Aqualung and continuing to support the brand now that it operates independently again. Over the years, I have sold well over 1,000 of their suits and have extensive experience repairing suits from various manufacturers.
I would like to offer some insights on the recent comments regarding Whites Drywear products:

1. AirCore vs. DryCore: The AirCore material has shown to be quite fragile and prone to leaking, regardless of whether it was manufactured in Mexico or Canada. Breathable suits, in general, tend to be more susceptible to leaking compared to other styles, and I would not describe the breathable material as “sturdier.” This view isn't just from the aircore, but all breathable suits from multiple manufacturers.
2. Rapid Zip System: All Whites Drywear suits utilize the Rapid Zip System, which is detailed on their website.
3. Si-Tech Neck Tite System: According to Whites Drywear, the Si-Tech Neck Tite System is currently undergoing field testing, and preliminary results are promising. They prioritize thorough testing to ensure product reliability before release, setting them apart from some competitors. We install a TON of the newer systems, and I agree they could have been a little quicker to adapt, but Whites just came back....so, they had a few years away and not building suits. It's OK to have a slower and more methodical approach. This is what made Whites so dominate in the past.

I hope this information is helpful.

I respect your experience as I know you are one of, if not the most the experienced shop in the US with regard to drysuit repair and modification but I would poin out the following:

1. I accept your comments regarding the AirCore and breathable fabrics, but are you purposely ignoring the fragility of the DryCore material? Or is its succeptability to cuts and puncture acceptable to DRIS due to the ease of patching?

2. I don't see any mention of "Rapid Zip" on their website....if I have mistakenly read past it, please let me know. I do have a quote from an email I received from them back in early July:

"Thank you for inquiring about Whites Fusion Bullet production. Whites branded Fusion drysuits are produced only with our DryCore material.
Concerning Fusion Bullet skins, a very limited number of Aqualung branded Fusion Bullet skins with the RapidZip system fitting your 2018 Fusion AirCore are available for replacement.
Let us know what size and color you require; we will verify our inventory and if available will get in touch with a Whites dealer that can quote you a replacement price."

I inferred the above to mean that they were not using the rapid zip system and reverted to the velcor attachment around the dryzipper of the earlier DryCore suits. Perhaps it meant they did not want to pair a Whites branded skin with an Aqualung branded suit, but have Whites branded RapidZip skins?

3. From news articles I read a handful of years ago, Aqualung and Whites were working in partnership to develop and produce the suits. Your website eludes to this as well:

Aqualung and White's-What's It All Mean

Most recreational divers out there spend very little time trying to understand what goes on behind the scenes at the myriad of companies that manufacture the equipment that they use. Nor should they r

www.diverightinscuba.com

"So, what does the synergy of these two powerhouses in the dive industry combining forces mean for you as the “diver in the water”? Well, as I see it this is the coming together of two companies with a solid background of research and development of some of the most advanced equipment out there. First, with White’s and their know how on dry goods and second to none manufacturing protocols as well as a team of active divers designing some of the most solid drysuits out there. Secondly Aqua-Lung with their longstanding reputation along with a commitment to producing the best and the most advanced products in today’s dive market. I’m confident that you would agree that there is quite a bit of opportunity for us to benefit from this!"

So while I appreciate a slower and more methodical approach to product development, the Si-Tech Quick Neck is tried, tested, and accepted improvement over their first generation NeckTite system. The continued use of the NeckTite system does come across as a good choice when there is a similar product by the same company, Si-Tech, that is considered more flexible and more comfortable which would work better for a larger range of customers, particularly women and men with narrower chest/shoulders. Whites has accepted plastic zippers as standard on their suits making the traditional robust brass zipper a MTO option...this is a development that was introduced by Aqualung. I am sure you have more experience, but my reading puts the longetivity of plastic drysuit zippers in question compared to a well cared for brass drysuit zipper. Both, of course, can fail, but seems the plastic zipper has a more limited lifespan in normal use.

-Z

 

[runsongas]

jury is still out on the newer plastic zips, I don't think most of those have hit 5 years yet, but also haven't heard a lot of complaints like the first gen either

 

[Zef]

jury is still out on the newer plastic zips, I don't think most of those have hit 5 years yet, but also haven't heard a lot of complaints like the first gen either

That's the point. DRIS is saying that Whites has not adopted the use of what is by and large considered a better neck ring/seal system that otherwise functions the same way as the si-tech 1st generation system because they want to continue "field testing" it, but they were very quick to adopt the plastic zippers which in their relatively short history have had issues and some consider them to have a short lifespan in actual use...the jury is still put with regards to plastic dry zips.

DRIS's response reads more like a "do no wrong" defense of White's decisions without any real balance.

-Z

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

I respect your experience as I know you are one of, if not the most the experienced shop in the US with regard to drysuit repair and modification but I would poin out the following:

1. I accept your comments regarding the AirCore and breathable fabrics, but are you purposely ignoring the fragility of the DryCore material? Or is its succeptability to cuts and puncture acceptable to DRIS due to the ease of patching?

2. I don't see any mention of "Rapid Zip" on their website....if I have mistakenly read past it, please let me know. I do have a quote from an email I received from them back in early July:

"Thank you for inquiring about Whites Fusion Bullet production. Whites branded Fusion drysuits are produced only with our DryCore material.
Concerning Fusion Bullet skins, a very limited number of Aqualung branded Fusion Bullet skins with the RapidZip system fitting your 2018 Fusion AirCore are available for replacement.
Let us know what size and color you require; we will verify our inventory and if available will get in touch with a Whites dealer that can quote you a replacement price."

I inferred the above to mean that they were not using the rapid zip system and reverted to the velcor attachment around the dryzipper of the earlier DryCore suits. Perhaps it meant they did not want to pair a Whites branded skin with an Aqualung branded suit, but have Whites branded RapidZip skins?

3. From news articles I read a handful of years ago, Aqualung and Whites were working in partnership to develop and produce the suits. Your website eludes to this as well:

Aqualung and White's-What's It All Mean

Most recreational divers out there spend very little time trying to understand what goes on behind the scenes at the myriad of companies that manufacture the equipment that they use. Nor should they r

www.diverightinscuba.com

"So, what does the synergy of these two powerhouses in the dive industry combining forces mean for you as the “diver in the water”? Well, as I see it this is the coming together of two companies with a solid background of research and development of some of the most advanced equipment out there. First, with White’s and their know how on dry goods and second to none manufacturing protocols as well as a team of active divers designing some of the most solid drysuits out there. Secondly Aqua-Lung with their longstanding reputation along with a commitment to producing the best and the most advanced products in today’s dive market. I’m confident that you would agree that there is quite a bit of opportunity for us to benefit from this!"

So while I appreciate a slower and more methodical approach to product development, the Si-Tech Quick Neck is tried, tested, and accepted improvement over their first generation NeckTite system. The continued use of the NeckTite system does come across as a good choice when there is a similar product by the same company, Si-Tech, that is considered more flexible and more comfortable which would work better for a larger range of customers, particularly women and men with narrower chest/shoulders. Whites has accepted plastic zippers as standard on their suits making the traditional robust brass zipper a MTO option...this is a development that was introduced by Aqualung. I am sure you have more experience, but my reading puts the longetivity of plastic drysuit zippers in question compared to a well cared for brass drysuit zipper. Both, of course, can fail, but seems the plastic zipper has a more limited lifespan in normal use.

-Z

Great followups! I'll address them in order

1- I don't agree that the Drycore is more susceptible to cuts or tears than the Aircore. I'll be honest, as a whole, the breathable edged that out from a repair standpoint and things we saw. That doesn't mean people didn't DIY the repairs. I think both were easy to patch, one using the patch kit the other Aquaseal.

2- I believe this is only due to Whites not having any additional inventory made yet, not that they weren't going to have them. My guess, is they were going off the inventory on hand as more were being made. They would have to give you that answer though.

3- Yeah, that's from 2015. The issue is Whites always took a slower approach to change due to testing. I agree, there is nothing wrong with the neck tite, we have done HUNDREDS on their suits with no issues. But, I can't speak for them and their methodology. Great question thought! As for Plastic VS. metal honestly, I'm a HUGE fan of plastic. They are more flexible, more forgiving, easier maintenance, and easier to zip. That being said, in the beginning they had delamination issues, but that's been solved. I've seen 1 delam in about 5 years since the fixes were put in place, and YKK never had issues. So, for me, Plastic all the way and I wouldn't say plastic has a more limited life span. Metal zippers wear out, teeth bend, zipper gets pinched in half, or breaks at the docking ends. Plastic, if it breaks, it's typically a tooth from someone getting in/out of the suit not fully unzipped or yanking too hard to get over the shoulder. I'll be honest, I give both a good outlook on longevity outside of user issues, with a little longer to the Plastic. Couple that with all of the other benefits of the plastic, hands down winner for me.

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

That's the point. DRIS is saying that Whites has not adopted the use of what is by and large considered a better neck ring/seal system that otherwise functions the same way as the si-tech 1st generation system because they want to continue "field testing" it, but they were very quick to adopt the plastic zippers which in their relatively short history have had issues and some consider them to have a short lifespan in actual use...the jury is still put with regards to plastic dry zips.

DRIS's response reads more like a "do no wrong" defense of White's decisions without any real balance.

-Z

They weren't exactly quick, Plastic was available back in the day when Whites was around (before the acquisition) and they were testing them. Then, tests showed Delam issues, which we all saw and realized. Then, they got bought. I think the zipper change made more sense to help keep pricing low, as costs rose elsewhere as they can be a little less expensive which adds up. Same on the Neck System, the Necktite is still a cheaper system, although I agree it's inferior to the quickneck.

I wouldn't say it's a "do no wrong", I guess I just didn't dig deeper on a response as I was out camping Ask away though, I'm an open book and back to work!