What would you do: Molested at 100' by an OOA Diver

[supergaijin]

No, that's not the only thing that happens. Like most people who have done it long enough, I have been in on catastrophic gear failures

/snip/

In those situations, while I get confused, and even bug-eyed, divers, I have not had anyone panic in the way OOA divers can.

Again, so the bear-hugger (Panic) wasn't a victim of gear failure but ran OOA. Victim just happened to be close to you. Victim wasn't part of your group- just another chap on the same boat.... who just happened to be closer to you than his buddy. Thanks, got it.

Of course "panic and molest" is not the only reaction a diver can have when OOA. I have also had DSDs calmly run completely out of air, signal for an alternate, and take my alternate and finish their dive with me even though I was not their instructor.

I guess I am lucky enough never to have worked with a bunch of muppets like those with whom you've surrounded yourself. I didn't even see this in Koh Tao.... which does have a reputation for 'Full Moon Party' after-effects. Redbull-vodka by the bucket is not normally inducive of relaxed divers.

You can either
1. Treat my experiences as a cautionary tale .....

2. Pretend it never happens, and be unprepared for when it happens to you.

or... call BS on some of the 'wisdom of how it really is' that you're spouting from your pulpit. One thing you're really good at is assuming that all diving practices are like those you've experienced in Hawaii diving with predominantly Japanese guests, with the odd heavy-breathing American thrown in. Posters with combined experience from around the world is telling you that this is not so. It would be refreshing for you to digest this instead of telling us all how it really is.

Side note:
[sarcasm]
And, yes, we just happened to end up under a hang tank. Of course, that was pure chance.

/snip/

If I have someone keeping me from getting to my reg, we are heading to the hang tank for my own benefit if not theirs.

IME Drop tanks are used only at certain sites that have mooring lines. Never on drift dives IME. Only during the initial descent and ascent would I have been close enough for a CESA with a panicked diver.

So you can either
1. Be diving small circles around the mooring line until something bad happens,

2. Combining 100' CESA ascents with a fairly decent lateral swim (4mins would probably do it )

3. Be telling Pork Pies.

 

[beanojones]

a bunch of
muppets

Learning about diving on the internet does tend to make one use words like that doesn't it? Go ahead and call me a stroke, too, then. Or is that no longer internet fashionable?

IME Drop tanks are used only at certain sites that have mooring lines. Never on drift dives IME. Only during the initial descent and ascent would I have been close enough for a CESA with a panicked diver.

But of course on drift dives the whole group off the same boat sticks together for the whole dive doesn't it? Oh wait th group usually doesn't? Well then. Must not be talking about drift dives then, huh?

Here's the problem with the attitude in your posts:
You think that there is something magical about a doing something that all divers used to routinely have to be do. I don't think there is anything magical at all about being able to do CESAs from 100 feet, or I would not have suggested it as a confidence builder to someone looking for confidence in deep diving in the first place. You apparently do think it is magical to be able to do something that used to be a fairly routine ability. So go ahead and call all the people in this thread who acknowledge being able to do them, or having had to do them, myself included, liars if you like.

But recognize that that is a comment about your abilities, not mine. And you are a full time instructor, if I am not mistaken. If you are not, then carry on.

 

[DCBC]

Ask a chamber driver what the depth at which a doctor inside the chamber is no longer allowed to make medical decisions.

As I'm a Class A Operator, I'll try to answer this. Although different facilities develop their own specific policies, there is no depth where decisions cannot be made. Generally, a Hyperbaric Nurse or Medic attends to the Patient and is monitored by a Hyperbaric Physician on the exterior of the Chamber. The Physician directs the the Hyperbaric attendant accordingly. In the event that the Physician is required to enter the Chamber, there is a second Physician who monitors the decisions being made. In the event that a secondary Physician is not available, procedures conforming to USN Diving Manual Section 5, 20-7.83 (or similar policy) is followed.

"Use of Diving Medical Officer as Inside Tender: If only one Diving Medical Officer is on site, the Medical Officer should lock in and out as the patient’s condition dictates, but should not commit to the entire treatment unless absolutely necessary. Once committed to remain in the chamber, the Diving Medical Officer effectiveness in directing the treatment is greatly diminished and consultation with other medical personnel becomes more difficult. If periods in the chamber are necessary, visits should be kept within no-decompression limits if possible."

The attending medical personnel can only do their best and use their best judgment.

Table 8 - 225 FSW (For recompression deeper than 165 FSW, Helium mixtures are used by the Attendant to avoid narcosis.)
Table 2A & 3 (Air Treatment Tables), 4 & 6A - 165 FSW
Table 1A - 100 FSW (Air Treatment Table)
Table 5, 6 & 7 - 60 FSW
Table 9 - 45 FSW

Note - Air Tables are used only as a last resort (if Oxygen is not available), which would be unusual.

So it would appear Beano, that you continue to comment on what you don't know.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Learning about diving on the internet does tend to make one use words like that doesn't it? Go ahead and call me a stroke, too, then. Or is that no longer internet fashionable?



But of course on drift dives the whole group off the same boat sticks together for the whole dive doesn't it? Oh wait th group usually doesn't? Well then. Must not be talking about drift dives then, huh?

Here's the problem with the attitude in your posts:
You think that there is something magical about a doing something that all divers used to routinely have to be do. I don't think there is anything magical at all about being able to do CESAs from 100 feet, or I would not have suggested it as a confidence builder to someone looking for confidence in deep diving in the first place. You apparently do think it is magical to be able to do something that used to be a fairly routine ability. So go ahead and call all the people in this thread who acknowledge being able to do them, or having had to do them, myself included, liars if you like.

But recognize that that is a comment about your abilities, not mine. And you are a full time instructor, if I am not mistaken. If you are not, then carry on.

So you do drift dives and the boat is always towing a deco tank and it is always located just above where you are diving, regardless of how scattered the members of the group become...that is your emergency plan?

 

[danvolker]

Assuming you are actually asking,

At that time, I was still playing with my reg setup, so I had a left mounted octo, a standard routed (over the shoulder) primary, and an Air2.

The first person ran out of air, signalled, and went on my octo. When that happened, the second girl's breathing rate went through the roof, and she too ran OOA, blowing through the rest of her air in no time.* She got my primary, I took the Air2 and we all headed back to shore. The erstwhile instructor actually failed to react to most of this. I was pretty busy so I was not actually paying much attention to what he was doing.

*One of the first times I got to see how meaningless SAC rates are.

BJ,
So you are saying that NONE of the OOA divers were part of your group....that you were essentially a WHITE KNIGHT that rode in to save them....
From the posts you have made about the cluelessness of the divers you take out daily, I would surmise they are barely able to survive in a swimming pool for 10 minutes by themselves...so I do question how safe they were while you were playing Sir Lancelot. Of course, this could allow you to enjoy telling an even more remarkable story--about the time you rescued 3 instructors from another group, AND two divers from your own group

Back to this account of the rescue.....you mention sharing air back to shore......With the mass OOA issue, or even one OOA, I think immediate surfacing and snorkeling ( or lying on back and kicking to shore with inflated BC) would be far more appropriate....Any attempt to bring a group like this any distance underwater--toward shore, would be an invitation for yet another OOA. The immediate objective would have to be surfacing, then stabilizing each diver--making sure each will not drown on the surface.
If you tell me you are diving in a shipping lane, and it is a virtual overhead.....then I will be saying only tech or cave divers have any business doing a dive in such a place--people trained and equipped for virtual overheads.....Hopefully you won't enter this territory for yet another tangent on this thread

 

[bosshog]

Thank you DCBC for an excellent answer.

 

[DaleC]

Wayne,
I would be interested in your take on an early concept based, I believe, on Haldane's work (sorry can't recall the source) in which it was suggested that divers should not past directly through two atm's without a stop. This had to do with the expansion of bubbles. Within two atm's the bubbles would not expand enough to cause harm so a diver could ascend directly but beyond 2 atm's the expansion could cause DCS or embolism.

It made sense to me (at the time) and forms part of my personal solo emergency ascent protocol. From approx. 50' I plan that I can ascend directly to the surface. Below that I carry redundancy so that I can make a stop. If I have a problem at depth (say 100') I know I can move directly up to 50' to resolve it (if I choose) and from there I can do a direct ascent if it still cannot be resolved.

In a sense, I chop the water column into 3 zones <50', 50-100', >100' and adjust my ascent strategy accordingly. The first I will play in all day. The second I take reasonable precautions with and the third I finitely limit my exposure to (primarily due to narcosis exposure as a solo diver).

I can't see BJ recommending CESA's from 100' as a common practice as it passes through 4 atm's.

 

[Tortuga68]

What do you think is worse, 1 dead diver or two?

Who are the divers?

 

[danvolker]

Wayne,
I would be interested in your take on an early concept based, I believe, on Haldane's work (sorry can't recall the source) in which it was suggested that divers should not past directly through two atm's without a stop. This had to do with the expansion of bubbles. Within two atm's the bubbles would not expand enough to cause harm so a diver could ascend directly but beyond 2 atm's the expansion could cause DCS or embolism.

It made sense to me (at the time) and forms part of my personal solo emergency ascent protocol. From approx. 50' I plan that I can ascend directly to the surface. Below that I carry redundancy so that I can make a stop. If I have a problem at depth (say 100') I know I can move directly up to 50' to resolve it (if I choose) and from there I can do a direct ascent if it still cannot be resolved.

In a sense, I chop the water column into 3 zones <50', 50-100', >100' and adjust my ascent strategy accordingly. The first I will play in all day. The second I take reasonable precautions with and the third I finitely limit my exposure to (primarily due to narcosis exposure).

I can't see recommending CESA's from 100' as a common practice as it passes through 4 atm's.

Dale, OOA means OOA. This means there is no stop, and no concern for stopping.
I can tell you that in the 60's and 70's, back when j valves were in vogue, CESA's happened frequently, and many practiced these from whatever depth they liked to dive in...meaning many people practiced this in 100 feet of water....

KNowing what we know now, if you wanted to practice a CESA from 100 feet, you would do it immediately in the beginning of a dive to 100 feet, and then after surfacing, go immediately right back down to the bottom, and do your dive (make it conservative if you have concerns).....and do a nice 10 foot deep safety stop..... If you are really paranoid about this...and I don't think you should be if you have good health and fitness, then bring a 20 cu foot pony of pure O2, and do 10 minutes on it at 20 feet...then surface.

P.S.

I am not endorsing BJ in any way with this.....planning on doing CESA's like she appears to, is wrong from so many directions it could make a diver psychotic....it might even make a diver into beano...

 

[DaleC]

Dan,

Good points. Part of what I do is based on not having issues that could cause me harm IRL. As you say, I might try a practice CESA from 100' for fun (at the beginning of a dive) but BJ is suggesting it as part of an actual emergency procedure. Most people go OOA at the end, not the beginning of a dive so the accumulation of N at the end of a 100' dive may be substantial. Suggesting, at that point, that a CESA to the surface is a desirable option doesn't sit right with me.
But then again, BJ doesn't believe in dive planning so???

Ps. I saw your added text.