What would you do: Molested at 100' by an OOA Diver

[danvolker]

Dan,

Good points. Part of what I do is based on not having issues that could cause me harm IRL. As you say, I might try a practice CESA from 100' for fun (at the beginning of a dive) but BJ is suggesting it as part of an actual emergency procedure. Most people go OOA at the end, not the beginning of a dive so the accumulation of N at the end of a 100' dive may be substantial. Suggesting, at that point, that a CESA to the surface is a desirable option doesn't sit right with me.
But then again, BJ doesn't believe in dive planning so???

Back in the late 70's and early 80's, when I was spearfishing, even to 100 to 130, when the j valve had to be clicked, we knew we had either enough to surface with, or we had enough air to shoot one more fish, then do an exhale to the surface with no more air in tank....maybe one breath at 30 feet.

Back then, this happened with considerable frequency, and no spearfisherman that I dove with, EVER had a DCS event....So anecdotally, with the several dozen divers I knew and dove with at the time, doing this dozens of times in a given year, there was no DCS from a CESA on a no-stop duration recreational dive..... tank used was a steel 72, and air was the gas.

I have not done a CESA since around 1985 when I had a US Divers reg blow and dump all air in about 15 seconds on a 145 foot dive...and even this was not really an full blown CESA, since I did get a few breaths up to around 50 feet when the tank emptied and the walls of bubbles stopped coming out... However, I would have no concern whatever in doing a 100 FOOT cesa tommorow, early in a dive....and I would not be freaked to do one 30 minutes in to a 80 foot nitrox dive.....however, I would have a buddy with plenty of air, and that would be the choice, not the CESA if there was a catastrophic reg failure or other OOA issue. Another reason buddy teams should always have their buddy in their peripheral awareness at all times.....This "awareness" is a skill that needs to be taught...

---------- Post added June 19th, 2013 at 09:52 AM ----------

So you do drift dives and the boat is always towing a deco tank and it is always located just above where you are diving, regardless of how scattered the members of the group become...that is your emergency plan?

Yea....the Captain of her boat has an underwater camera mounted to the bottom, just like Lloyd Bridges did in Sea Hunt....and he watched BJ and her group underwater....and stays on top of them..."yeah, that's the ticket.."....and if he sees she needs more tanks, he just drops them down to her....

If only we could have Boat Buddies like BJ!

 

[supergaijin]

I'm from New Zealand where we speak the Queen's. Muppet is fairly frequently used and is a forum-safe version of what I'd normally say to your recent posts.

Must not be talking about drift dives then, huh?

So you're talking about diving in little circles around a mooring line. Sounds legit.

Here's the problem with the attitude in your posts:
You think that there is something magical about a doing something that all divers used to routinely have to be do. I don't think there is anything magical at all about being able to do CESAs from 100 feet, or I would not have suggested it as a confidence builder to someone looking for confidence in deep diving in the first place. You apparently do think it is magical to be able to do something that used to be a fairly routine ability. So go ahead and call all the people in this thread who acknowledge being able to do them, or having had to do them, myself included, liars if you like.

But recognize that that is a comment about your abilities, not mine. And you are a full time instructor, if I am not mistaken. If you are not, then carry on.

Actually, that's not the point I was trying to make. I have no problem with 100' CESA- or the people who do it. Could I? I'm pretty sure I could seeing as I can freedive 60'. I doubt I'll ever practice a vertical one but maybe horizontally tomorrow.

My point is: 4 minute exhalations are worthy of William Trubridge- I honestly can't fathom this as 'the truth'.

You've made other eye-brow raising claims. One of the biggest is that OOA divers go from stealing your primary and bear-hugging you, to calmly swapping over to a drop-tank, which just happens to be overhead. In what world does this happen?

You claim to have witnessed and intervened in many OOA situations- none of your own divers of course. Either you're the unluckiest woman in the world or the company you work for is just DIW. By your own admission you have many divers in your immediate area running OOA. Divers using reasonable gas-planning do not. Try putting 2 and 2 together. It may save someone's life.

 

[TSandM]

So anecdotally, with the several dozen divers I knew and dove with at the time, doing this dozens of times in a given year, there was no DCS from a CESA on a no-stop duration recreational dive.....

I wonder how many of those folks have subsequently been diagnosed with either massively advanced DJD, or frank osteonecrosis . . . Bone is where I'd expect to see the damage from such practices over time.

Beano, I have a question for you -- do you work in Hawaii with Japanese divers, or in Japan? I thought you were in Japan. If you're guiding in Hawaii, the practices you are describing are wildly different from anything I've seen on Maui or the Big Island.

 

[danvolker]

I wonder how many of those folks have subsequently been diagnosed with either massively advanced DJD, or frank osteonecrosis . . . Bone is where I'd expect to see the damage from such practices over time.

Beano, I have a question for you -- do you work in Hawaii with Japanese divers, or in Japan? I thought you were in Japan. If you're guiding in Hawaii, the practices you are describing are wildly different from anything I've seen on Maui or the Big Island.

Thanks Lynne, now you have dropped my anecdotal data from dozens to about 2 people...Franks Hammett ( who is genetically a freak that offgassed in a manner not consistent with other humans--and now around 90 years old in good health), and me....so my "data" is no longer of any value

Still, the point I was making was that the safety of doing a CESA is not so bad, if done on the first minute or 2 of a dive, and then the diver goes back down before hypersaturation could occur. And that getting to the surface when OOA, trumps DCS concerns that are probably sub-clinical.

I will always support the position that a buddy and air share is the solution for OOA or low on air ( and that gas management and dive planning was the primary preventative) ....and that a CESA is the last resort solution only when the diver has created a major series of horrible mistakes, leaving them no other options....if one of us behaves as a complete moron, we should have the CESA tool in our bag of tricks. If one of us ends up using the CESA with any regularity, then we are certainly a COMPLETE MORON and we should be AVOIDED by all other divers, and banned from boats.
And then at that point we would likely be diving with BJ, in the alternate universe she lives in, where the Laws of Physics are different anyway

 

[The Chairman]

I will always support the position that a buddy and air share is the solution for OOA or low on air ( and that gas management and dive planning was the primary preventative) ....and that a CESA is the last resort solution only when the diver has created a major series of horrible mistakes, leaving them no other options....if one of us behaves as a complete moron, we should have the CESA tool in our bag of tricks. If one of us ends up using the CESA with any regularity, then we are certainly a COMPLETE MORON and we should be AVOIDED by all other divers, and banned from boats.

Sorry dude, but we're going to have to agree to agree on this. Truly, that just sums it up for me. Only morons run out of air due to gross negligence. A lack of planning, a lack of awareness and the inability to monitor your and your buddy's air supply would constitute gross negligence in my book. They should find another hobby where attention to detail doesn't matter so much.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If only we could have Boat Buddies like BJ!

[sarcasm]
You can ... but you need to quit doing all your diving on the internet and get out in the real world where real things like having to do CESA from 100 feet while being bear-hugged by an OOA panicked diver are common occurrances ...
[/sarcasm]

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

Sorry dude, but we're going to have to agree to agree on this. Truly, that just sums it up for me. Only morons run out of air due to gross negligence. A lack of planning, a lack of awareness and the inability to monitor your and your buddy's air supply would constitute gross negligence in my book. They should find another hobby where attention to detail doesn't matter so much.

The moron and complete moron thing was well explained in the Princess Pride...We should try very hard to never be a "complete moron".... and being "just a moron", means there is a good likelihood we will end up only "Mostly Dead".....




:
Inigo Montoya: He's dead. He can't talk.
Miracle Max: Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do.
Inigo Montoya: What's that?
Miracle Max: Go through his clothes and look for loose change.



( ** Sorry, I just love this quote )

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I think this thread's mostly dead ... maybe we should do the merciful thing and make it all dead ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DCBC]

...CESA is the last resort solution only when the diver has created a major series of horrible mistakes, leaving them no other options....if one of us behaves as a complete moron, we should have the CESA tool in our bag of tricks.

I can't totally agree with you on this one Dan. You can do everything right and find yourself in the position of having to do a CESA. On one occasion, I was diving solo and rendered assistance to an OOA diver. A few seconds later, his buddy went OOA (both Instructors). As I found one of the divers immovable due to narcosis, I decided to do a CESA to the safety diver (approx. 130' above me) rather than sit around and go OOA. Before I started my ascent, helped arrived. Perhaps I was a Moron for trying to assist the other Divers, but after I initially shared gas with the first diver, things went down hill fast. I don't know what else I could have done...

I agree with Winston Churchill that we should "Let our advance worrying become advance thinking and planning." We try to take 'reasonable precautions,' but it seems that "stercus accidit." Sometimes we just have to deal with it to the best of our abilities. For me, that's the reason for practicing CESA. Now back to our regular scheduled programing....

 

[TONY CHANEY]

A CESA from 100' yes but a CESA from 100' with an OOA diver, no reg. in your mouth no! As I stated from the begining of this thread...BS!