What would you do: Molested at 100' by an OOA Diver

[DCBC]

None of my divers run out of air.

Quoting you:

"And yes this happens. It's happened to me, in fact, several time: an diver who chose to go without a guide, because "diving in Hawaii is easy, so who needs to pay for a guide". So they drop to the bottom, because "Hey, as long as I can see the boat it's not deep right?", and then they run out of air, hard, at 100 feet.."

...What makes most mainland based divers/instructors boggle at what I say is that they talk a lot about diving, and do some diving. Almost all of what the divers think about diving seems to come from interactions with people (rather than interactions with the water), on ScubaBoard and other places....Those of us who were doing it full-time ten years ago, and will still doing it ten years from now are very, very, very few in number. ...So I am more than willing to be attacked for actually reporting what actually happens in diving, because people find talking about diving on the internet interesting, and there's not much I can do about the fact that some people find what I say worth being angry about.

Although I respect your ten years of experience, many of us that are participating in this conversation don't just talk about diving on the Internet. I've been instructing recreational/technical/commercial and military diving for over 42 years (likely before you were born) and have over 32,000 hours logged. So forgive us for just not automatically accepting everything you say as fact. You may feel yourself "in the know", but believing this to be the case, doesn't make it true.

It may come as a surprise, but many of us have largely developed our understanding by doing (not just reading about it or talking on the Internet). People's experiences are not limited to the "mainland," but are internationally based.

I'm aware that Divers don't plan every dive; especially if they're jumping into clear warm puddle. I teach my students how to plan, so they may take this skill forward. You don't usually dive for very long until planning becomes critical to safety. If you're not at that point yet, I understand.

 

[beanojones]

Then, how do you have so much experience with OOA divers?

You see they have these things called boats, you see. And on these boats, they are often different companies, each of whom has its own clientele, and in many cases cannot even speak to each other because Russian, American, Korean, Japanese, and CHinese people all speak different languages.

(Actually, I did explain all this in my very first post in this thread, and several times since, particularly in the post where I talked about how, because I do this for a living, I consider it my job to help anyone regardless of whether they are my divers, because poop sticks to everyone when someone has an incident. The latest fatality on a boat (that I had nothing to do with thankfully), that was caused by a heart attack under water, closed down two shops (only one of which had responsibility for the diver) and the boat operator who was just running the boat and diving their own divers. They all did speak Japanese though.

Poop sticks to everything it can.)

 

[TSandM]

Beano, I'm with you -- I don't want to make a lot of decisions when I'm narced. That's why I observe the 100 foot END rule that my chosen agency espouses. But within that, yes, it is possible to use the maximum depth of the dive (either set by topography or agreement) to calculate gas reserves and a profile. Some of my dives are like the Carthaginian off Maui, where we dove very close to a square profile, and agreed ahead of time on what our bottom time would be. Others are more like our common shore dive at Cove 2, where the max depth may be 100 feet, but the average depth of the dive will run much closer to 40, and again, the gas reserves are calculated so that we have left depth before we hit them, and then, of course, the required reserve drops as you work your way shallower.

All this stuff may seem very complicated to someone who doesn't do it. But the fact is that, if you use the same size tank a lot, it's pretty darned easy to memorize a few salient numbers and plan around them. Even when you are presented with an unfamiliar tank, it only takes a couple of minutes to do some very basic arithmetic and immediately see how to adapt your common strategy to the new parameters.

I haven't taught diving for ten years. I have BEEN diving almost ten years, and I've been diving in an awful lot of places, although Japan is not one of them. I have never seen people execute dives the way you are describing, with no information at all about the dive before getting in the water -- not anywhere have I seen that. And although I have not done a scientific study of any kind, I am part of a worldwide organization that plans and executes its dives the way I do (because they taught me to do it). And although people may be running out of gas and getting bent in huge numbers elsewhere in the world, it is certainly not happening to our divers here in Puget Sound.

I appreciate your observations of diving market and practices in Japan, but the longer I read here, the more I think that what you see and report is not in any way reflective of the general state of diving elsewhere.

 

[danvolker]

One thing Sandra and I found when we went to Fiji with a group of about 15 die hard, Floridian divers..the Fijians were used to catering to the worst kind of diver imaginable...whether from NZ or Asia.....The norm for them, was that their divers could not, or would not get back on the boat, until the crew took their gear off in the water...even though the boats had huge easy ladders....The dive masters would do a tour, and were used to checking the air of all the divers in their group as they went.....With our group, we tended to have more air that the DM's did whenever they checked, and each of us refused to have their gear stripped off by crew in the water--we get on the way we like to.

As we made friends with the crew, they told us horror stories about how bad many of the divers are in this region....We got to do the dives the crew would do themselves for fun, instead of the normal fare for groups of "Never-Evers".

So I'd have to say that if I was going to be working a boat in an area like this, I might feel compelled to build some remedial training into the first or second day, of a week or more long trip---even it you could not charge for it....I just don't think you should "accept" divers diving this badly, this dependent on others for everything.

I am willing to do a DSD or a Tooka dive with a non-diver--up to two that are kept close together. In this instance, I am monitoring them every minute, and doing literally everything for them except breathing. From the sound of BJ's groups, I think they need to be treated like these non-divers, and taken down the way we do DSD or Tooka divers..... Either you do EVERYTHING, or the diver does everything....the middle ground area feels to me like a recipe for Rescues or deaths.

p.s. I got my Divemaster Rating so that I could become an Instructor for doing Tooka in our Palm Beach Resort settings..i.e, I am a Tooka Instructor with NASE...I don't really know why my profile shows DM, but I'd say this is relevant to this discussion.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

You are not alone. Most divers don't dive their local puddle, they dive when travelling, and the fact is conditions and depths are just simply not known before hand by the divers, nor are they really needed to be known. Tank sizes are not really there for the choosing. Max limits may be there on whatever dive either by a hard bottom, or a recreational limit, or etc. But the actual dive is what the actual dive is. That is, in fact, why people use dive computers. I simply have never seen anyone outside of a class ever once use tables to plan dives, and that is tens of thousands of divers. And it is just as well because the few people who try to say they are using tables claim to be able to use tables after doing a 100 foot max depth dive for 50 minutes, (Or they say they have the NDLs memorized), and then dive multilevel profiles that blow the NDLs for the square profiles they have memorized, and do repetitive dives that make that claim even more specious.

Since no one uses tables to plan dives, then no one knows their NDLs. And that's fine, since again, that's why people use dive computers.

And then again since no one really knows their depth, or the conditions, then gas planning is beside the point since SAC rate calculations really need both.

There are two ways to approach how people actually do things. One is to say they are doing it wrong, and bemoan what is becoming of the world today. The other is to make what people actually do work.

Most divers who travel dive with guides for the very reasons you enumerate ... and although the diver may not be familiar with the site, the guide should be. I have yet to dive anywhere in the world where the guide doesn't establish ... before the dive ... the depth and time limits we'll be diving to.

There's a big difference between what BDSC describes and what you describe. He's an experienced diver ... I've seen him dive, and he knows what he's doing. He does, in fact, have a pretty good idea of his consumption rate ... not in terms of quantifiable mathematics perhaps, but from hundreds of dives of experience. He knows exactly how far and deep he can push it, and whether consciously or not, he has a trigger that tells him when it's time to turn the dive in order to get back to shore safely.

This is NOT the same thing you've been describing.

There are more than two ways to approach how people actually do things. Besides the two you mentioned, there's setting a good example as a dive professional, and making people aware ... once they are in your charge ... of what the dive profile will be.

If you're having to deal with OOA's on anything other than an extremely rare circumstance, then you're NOT making what people actually do work ... you're just applying a patch to what they're doing that isn't working, and trusting your own abilities to take care of them. Not only are you encouraging diving dependency, but sooner or later, that approach is going to end up putting you in a position where you have to deal with a fatality ... and because of your encouragement of dependency, it WILL be your liability. It's a pretty dangerous attitude. It's also, by the way, a violation of the way you had to have been taught to dive.

"Plan your dive and dive your plan" is a fundamental part of every agency's OW training for a reason ... it would really suck to be you having to explain to a court, or your agency, why you felt it didn't apply to how you and the people in your care conducted your dive ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TSandM]

Just to clarify -- I believe beano has said a couple of times that it isn't the divers SHE is leading who are causing these problems, but other divers present at the sites.

 

[supergaijin]

And yet somehow at least one of these other divers just happened to be close enough to go OOA, grab her reg, and bear-hug her requiring her to CESA from 30m where luckily they ended up directly under a hang-tank, where the OOA diver was much calmer thankfully, and switched over to the spare reg.


The lady doth protest too much, methinks...

As far as when it really happens, well I kind of think it is a working guides job to ensure safety, even when the person is not directly under my control. Not everyone thinks that, but thankfully most people who think that way are not working as dive guides for a living (or at least won't be for long). Those of us who do this full time fully expect that if someone suffers a serious accident in our vicinity, we will very likely lose our ability to work, so we do everything to make sure accidents don't happen, and problems get help.

I know I can do a CESA from depth, and an actual OOA diver has no ability to handle really anything. They have to be on the end of a long chain of stupid actions to get in that situation, so expecting them to do anything smart is silly. So I don't expect to be doing anything but panicking, and I count on my ability to basically handle anything underwater. Full panic, even. But once the OOA diver gets a reg in, and they are starting up, they usually calm down pretty quick. It takes a long time to get from 100 feet to the surface, and the OOA diver is usually pretty relaxed by the time we get to the safety stop hang tank, and are more than happy to switch to that reg.

This is apparently what "really happens". I always wondered...

 

[beanojones]

And yet somehow at least one of these other divers just happened to be close enough to go OOA, grab her reg, and bear-hug her requiring her to CESA from 30m where luckily they ended up directly under a hang-tank, where the OOA diver was much calmer thankfully, and switched over to the spare reg.
View attachment 157502

The lady doth protest too much, methinks...



This is apparently what "really happens". I always wondered...

No, that's not the only thing that happens. Like most people who have done it long enough, I have been in on catastrophic gear failures (blown tank O-rings, blown LP hoses, completely separated hemisphere swivels, USD Micra lever failures, Sherwood Brut lever failures, Yoke screw failures, Yoke nut separations, swivel turret separations, misreading SPGs, etc.) IME, most catastrophic gear failures result in divers laughingly (but seriously, and immediately) requesting help. The same goes for jammed purge buttons resulting in air loss to the point of ending a dive early.

The lever failures in specific are the most confusing for all involved. The free flowing octos are obvious to me, though they confuse the diver involved (Also known as why I do not dive with a standard octo, and use primary donate setups exclusively.)

In those situations, while I get confused, and even bug-eyed, divers, I have not had anyone panic in the way OOA divers can. But that's not a surprise, OOA is a completely different feel, because it really only happens to people acting like idiots on the far end of a chain of stupid. Catastrophic gear failures happen to divers who are just victims of chance.

If you have not had a diver 'molest' you when OOA, then I am glad for you, and for the divers. I have, and as much as it apparently bugs you that this has happened to me and not you, it has happened to me, and not you.

Of course "panic and molest" is not the only reaction a diver can have when OOA. I have also had DSDs calmly run completely out of air, signal for an alternate, and take my alternate and finish their dive with me even though I was not their instructor. Color me, and the guy who was their instructor, surprised. On the one dive that comes to mind I ended up with two of that instructors divers on my air supply(!). Both of whom ran OOA, and reacted by merely signalling OOA and taking a backup reg calmly on their very first open ocean dive. (Also known as "What the fsck is going on with this instructor?" that he did not notice when both of his intro divers ran OOA and got air from some random diver in the same ocean. He's a limo driver now, thankfully, and no longer working as an instructor.)

So, no, there is never a "This is how it happens and it does not happen any other way" to anything in diving. In other words, this is why Rescue Class can be a bunch of drills with known inputs and outputs, or more usefully it can be a wide spectrum of problems solved with a wide spectrum of solutions.

But by thinking that you know how people react in all cases, you are making it less likely that you will be able to help people in some cases.

You can either
1. Treat my experiences as a cautionary tale for how prepared you might want to be, if /when it happens to you. This is what I did because my CD prepared me for the eventuality that in Hawaii someone is going to run OOA hard and do just what I said, because that exactly happened to him, because Hawaii. So for me, practicing skills (like a CESA from 100 feet) that allow one to not have to fight a diver in need for survival makes sense. You might prefer to be able to fight off the diver, and leave them to their fate. For the selfish reasons enumerated elsewhere, I will not choose that option, ever. I don't want incidents happening anywhere near me, because I need to be able to count on going to work next week/month/year.

2. Pretend it never happens, and be unprepared for when it happens to you.

Side note:
[sarcasm]
And, yes, we just happened to end up under a hang tank. Of course, that was pure chance. No one would ever actually help a diver get to a place where they could breathe off a hang tank would they? No one would ever guide in such a way that the boat is always in an accessible location, would they? No one would ever make sure that every boat they dive on hangs a tank would they?
[/sarcasm]
Actually, I would. As mentioned before, having presence of mind when the bad things happen is why I do things like practice CESAs from 100 feet. So that I am not particularly flustered when bad things happen. If I have someone keeping me from getting to my reg, we are heading to the hang tank for my own benefit if not theirs.

There is a reason to be much more capable than the average instructor when working as a dive professional on the tourist market. Because eventually, it will become useful.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

....
Actually, I would. As mentioned before, having presence of mind when the bad things happen is why I do things like practice CESAs from 100 feet. So that I am not particularly flustered when bad things happen. If I have someone keeping me from getting to my reg, we are heading to the hang tank for my own benefit if not theirs.
.

So let me get this straight, you and your divers have absolutely NO WAY to predict the expected depth of the dive, but if/when the OOA occurs your plan is to shoot up and get on the hang tank in a true emergency? How do you plan all your dives (and accidents from other people's customers) to occur EXACTLY under a hang tank.

For someone who says planning is unworkable, your "plans" seem strange to me?

 

[ferris213]

. On the one dive that comes to mind I ended up with two of that instructors divers on my air supply(!). Both of whom ran OOA, and reacted by merely signalling OOA and taking a backup reg calmly on their very first open ocean dive. (Also known as "What the fsck is going on with this instructor?" that he did not notice when both of his intro divers ran OOA and got air from some random diver in the same ocean. .

Can you elaborate on this? Did you end up on your octo while two DSD buddy breathed your primary donated reg? All while the leader of the DSD divers watched and did nothing? Or we're these two OOA at different times? In which case I assume the DSD leader took the first client that went OOA off you and surfaced, leaving another client unsupervised, who subsequently ran out of air as well and was rescued by you.

Or do you normally dive with three second stages?