What would you do: Molested at 100' by an OOA Diver

[DCBC]

What it comes down to Beano is your original statement that started this all. Obviously if Divers you are Guiding are running OOA numerous times, you have to ask yourself what precautions are reasonable for you to take? Rule of 1/3's or not, your Divers are going OOA in dives you are leading. The answer to the problem has nothing to do with you being able to do a CESA from 100 feet, so why do you continue to lead divers who have no concept of Gas Management to this depth?

You know that this is the case, so why do you not make a practice to monitor their gas supply? I'm sure you are aware about your responsibility as a Guide. So why haven't you addressed this? It seems by your comments, that you feel safe because of your in-water abilities, but don't seem to want to address the safety of your charges. You have a professional duty to address. As I've said before, this isn't all about you. If you're a professional, shouldn't you begin to act like one?

 

[dumpsterDiver]

If the depths and conditions are predictable, SAC rate planning might be predictable.

(.).

If depths are not predictable... then how the heck would a dive be conducted? What mix would a diver use?


These comments are getting more and more ridiculous.. PADI dive instructor... ???

 

[danvolker]

BJ,
If YOU are leading the dive, then the depths should be very predictable as DD suggested.
I am beginning to think you are Trolling.....

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If the depths and conditions are predictable, SAC rate planning might be predictable.

(And that is assuming one has a baseline breathing rate that does not vary wildly, which is simply an assumption I have learned is foolhardy. The same diver can tremendously increase their air usage by as much as a factor of five (depth independent).)

But, even if air usage from a given diver was not wildly variable, depths and conditions are completely varied for many recreational dives. We jump in daily and do a current check, because we have to, and that is mostly which direction the current is running. Once the current direction in known, then we plan our dive direction, but as to depth and how much current we are fighting, that is all once we are in the water. So workload and depth are completely unknown. The only fixed variable is the size of our tank.

And then add the fact that currents switch direction underwater, and for some dives we can drift, and others we cannot drift and sometimes we do not know if it is a drift or not, until we are well into the dive and the boat takes off.

Go ahead, tell me how gas planning would help these dives.

Gas planning establishes a baseline, based on your dive plan ... assuming you're making a dive plan, you know your anticipated depth and time. You (hopefully) also have some idea what type of conditions to expect. Yes, certainly gas consumption rates vary with conditions ... but it's no different than the MPG in your car ... you have a pretty good idea how far a tank of gas will get you under certain conditions, and you have a reasonable idea how different conditions are going to affect your mileage. When you encounter those conditions, it triggers a response (because you have that knowledge) that you will have to more closely monitor your available gas supply and perhaps make some changes to the plan to account for the unanticipated conditions. Diving's no different ... or at least, it shouldn't be.

You base your gas needs on the planned profile and anticipated conditions. If something varies during the dive, it's an indication that you'll want to (a) consider changing your profile (perhaps to a shallower depth or shortened time), or pay closer attention to your SPG to see how variable conditions are affecting your actual consumption.

In other words, it's a clue that you will be varying from the baseline consumption needs you established as part of your dive plan ... and a trigger that you need to pay MORE attention to your gauge ... not the LESS attention that you seem to believe will be the case.

Not having a baseline simply means you don't really have a plan, and are paddling around randomly until you reach a point where you realize it's time to abort the dive. You are trusting that you'll recognize when you reach that point. That sort of "planning" just sets you up for failure.

I don't think you 'get' rule of thirds.

If you're teaching and practicing something as conservative of rule of thirds, and you're still having to deal with students or clients running out of air, I don't think you "get" rule of thirds either. And for sure, based on your comments in this thread, I don't think you have a clue what gas management is. Perhaps it's time for you to stop assuming that you know what you're talking about and start listening to those who do.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DaleC]

I don't think you 'get' rule of thirds.

Pretty clear on the concept.

But I want to hear more how you don't know what depth you are going to dive at and only decide that "in the water". Funny way to plan a dive. No wonder your clients are going OOA. You've taken away any chance at pre-determination and rely solely on monitoring.

Keep digging

 

[Abdullah]

BJ,
If YOU are leading the dive, then the depths should be very predictable as DD suggested.
I am beginning to think you are Trolling.....

I don't know how it could be anything other than a troll... could an instructor from any agency really be this daft?

 

[DCBC]

...could an instructor from any agency really be this daft?

I'm sure there are many others...

 

[BDSC]

But I want to hear more how you don't know what depth you are going to dive at and only decide that "in the water".

I do that a lot when I'm in the Caribbean. When I'm in Little Cayman and diving Bloody Bay Wall for example, I don't know if I will see something interesting at 100 ft. and spend several minutes there or if I end up staying at 40 to 50 ft. the entire dive. I really have no idea until I get in. Now I may have decided a max depth for that dive and not go below but I also may not even come close to that as well.

I also have no idea what my SAC rate is. I think I had to calculate that when I was certified but haven't since or at least I don't remember doing it again. For the type of diving I do, I don't see a need to know it really.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I do that a lot when I'm in the Caribbean. When I'm in Little Cayman and diving Bloody Bay Wall for example, I don't know if I will see something interesting at 100 ft. and spend several minutes there or if I end up staying at 40 to 50 ft. the entire dive. I really have no idea until I get in. Now I may have decided a max depth for that dive and not go below but I also may not even come close to that as well.

I also have no idea what my SAC rate is. I think I had to calculate that when I was certified but haven't since or at least I don't remember doing it again. For the type of diving I do, I don't see a need to know it really.

Yeah but....In reality you DO KNOW your SAC rate. You know it in terms of:

I can probably do X minutes at my typical depth of Y ft and start the ascent with my normal Z psi.... Even though you have not done the math to determine gas consumption in units of cu-ft per minute at the surface, you are using an alternative mathematical system that is based on other units and in reality.. it is no less valid (at least for the depths you are used to working in).

I do the same thing generally...If I do the calculation my SAC is gonna come out to around 0.75 unless I am working hard, then it will be about 1 and if I am paddling around in shallow water looking for arrow crabs, it is much lower.. I don't even know how much lower, because I don't really care and wouldn't use that figure for planning a dive of any significance.

 

[BDSC]

I see what you are saying and for the most part you're right. I do know that a 80 ft. tank is going to last me about X minutes for a 50 to 60 ft. dive etc. I guess I am reading all these posts about gas planning and management but in reality, I just strap on a tank and off I go. I have my computer set to alarm at 1500psi so that lets me know, for a typical reef dive, that it's time to turn around. I just don't know of anyone, when doing Cozumel, Bonaire, the Caymans, Roatan, etc., that calculates SAC rates and then determines if they have enough gas for a dive with an aluminum 80. Most resorts give you an 80 and you make it work. I'm sure there are times when it would be the upmost of importance to do all of that but for the diving I typically do, it's just not that much to think about.