What would you do: Molested at 100' by an OOA Diver

[dumpsterDiver]

Finally people are beginning to understand that a lot of what Beano is selling on this thread is nonsense. Sac rate and knowledge of gas planning don't matter because a high work load or anxiety will cause the SAC to be elevated?

Now she says admits that the comments about the necessity of practicing CESA from 100 feet with a diver hugging her is not reality.

I am still waiting for her to recant the 4 minutes swimming, continuous exhalation ascent from 100 feet.

She claims to be doing everything imaginable underwater each day because she is a dive guide or professional, but then why has she not offered us a video of the 4 minutes exhalation and swim?

I am beginning to get a good idea why we have not seen it.

 

[beanojones]

Beano you quite contradictory. On one hand you talk about the overwhelming numbers of your divers who run OOA while diving. Enough divers run OOA with you for you to practice 4min CESA. .

Never said either. Please read more carefully.

---------- Post added June 15th, 2013 at 03:52 PM ----------

beano, I have NEVER read a thread where ANYONE has suggested that gas management obviates the necessity to monitor your gas while underwater; nor can I remember anyone reporting that because they plan their gas, they don't check it. Shoot, even I check my gas, when I am doing a dive I have done a couple hundred times before, where I know that the gas I have on my back would permit me to do the dive two or three TIMES before hitting minimum gas!
.

But IIRC from the recent and long ago threads, many don't check their buddies, and get irritated when people continue to ask theirs (I think the quote was something along the lines of a middle finger in response). But your gas is my gas and vice versa when we are recreational diving, so checking 'my' gas has to include actually knowing your gas.

I don't really bother to collect posts from threads, but every time gas management threads come up, those who advocate gas planning and knowing SACs talk about how they know how much gas they are using on a dive without having to check.

In actual fact, it matters not how much air someone usually uses, it only matters how much they have left on the dive at hand. I get to see the result of people who think they "know how much air they usually use."

SAC works on constant depth dives, and in pool like conditions (basically quarries). Since the depth varies so wildly on many recreational dives, and baseline gas usage varies so wildly depending on conditions, SAC rates are beside the point since they give no useful info beyond "I use a lot of air" or "I am good on air".

This is basically the same point on a different topic about whether people use tables to plan dives. Constant depth dives are doable on tables. Gas planning is doable on constant depth dives in controlled conditions. That, however is not how most diving is done, so both tables and gas planning only work on a tiny subset of diving.

I get to find out, firsthand, what people do with knowledge that does not actually apply to how they actually dive: They fake it and so they know how to use tables on a 50 minute 100 foot dive. They fake it so they pretend SAC rate has something to do with the dive they just did.

---------- Post added June 15th, 2013 at 03:58 PM ----------

The gas consumption of any diver will stabilize and become relatively predictable for that person in-time.

No it simply does will not become predictable, in variable open ocean conditions, and at variable depths. Conditions make the breathing rate increase, and variable depths make even a never change SAC rate not matter, since the depths vary so wildly.

Beyond just normal changes in workload, you have rightfully noted that panic is not predictable. What you are failing to take account of is that sliding scale towards full blown pani that causes enormous spikes in air consumption, which again makes SAC rate calculations largely meaningless.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

. Constant depth dives are doable on tables. Gas planning is doable on constant depth dives in controlled conditions. That, however is not how most diving is done, so both tables and gas planning only work on a tiny subset of diving.

Conditions make the breathing rate increase, and variable depths make even a never change SAC rate not matter, since the depths vary so wildly.

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So you can't plan a dive if you might change depth and encounter an elevated workload? Depth doesn't matter? Where do you come up with this stuff, .....Beano?

 

[boulderjohn]

I don't really bother to collect posts from threads, but every time gas management threads come up, those who advocate gas planning and knowing SACs talk about how they know how much gas they are using on a dive without having to check.

The idea is that you have a pretty darn good idea how much gas you will use on a dive. That information is quite valuable. That does not mean, however, that you don't check. When you check your gas, it will normally be a confirmation of what you expected, but it might not be. You still check. Always.

SAC works on constant depth dives, and in pool like conditions (basically quarries). Since the depth varies so wildly on many recreational dives, and baseline gas usage varies so wildly depending on conditions, SAC rates are beside the point since they give no useful info beyond "I use a lot of air" or "I am good on air".

There are different uses of the term by different people. Some confuse it with RMV, or Respiratory Minute Volume. To get past the individual terminology, you have a basic SAC rate that you know, and you adjust it for conditions, including varying depths, currents, etc. It's not that hard, and it really is pretty predictable.

What I say next may sound a bit snarky, but it is actually sincere. Your most recent posts indicate you really don't know a lot about what is taught when we teach gas management. Before you condemn the process, I strongly urge you to learn something about it.

 

[spectrum]

This is basically the same point on a different topic about whether people use tables to plan dives. Constant depth dives are doable on tables. Gas planning is doable on constant depth dives in controlled conditions. That, however is not how most diving is done, so both tables and gas planning only work on a tiny subset of diving. is not predictable.

It sounds like you are only capable of a tiny subsection of gas planning.

I agree that for the rank and file diver on many dives it may be more about milestones and it needs to be adaptive but to suggest gas and dive planning is not possible really scares me from someone with your credential.

Pete

 

[TSandM]

beano, in the last couple hundred dives I have done -- some in current, some in caves, some in calm water, some in cold and some in warm, my SAC rate has varied by a maximum of .1 cfm. Could it go up higher than that? Sure -- I'm certain that if I looked back at some of my dives into Ginnie Springs, fighting the firehose flow, I had a period of much higher gas consumption. But I am TOTALLY aware that that is what's going on, and I'd be crazy to think that my "normal" SAC rate applied when doing that kind of work.

In all other circumstances, I know what my average depth for the last five minutes is, and I know what my SAC rate is, so I know how much gas I expect to have used, and when I look at my gauge, it reflects what I already know it is going to say. If it doesn't, I need to start looking hard for the reason why.

 

[Frosty]

beano -an old saying comes to mind. '" better to keep quiet and have people think you are stupid than open your mouth and confirm it"
You really are digging yourself a fair ol pit

 

[DaleC]

Rule of thirds, the end. Once divers want to do more than turn at 1/3, they might seek more info. But of they always dive rule of thirds (honestly), they'll never have to, no matter how challenging the dive is.

Tee Hee Hee. Thanks for the laugh beano. That's a good one.
So, when I shore dive to 50' with an Al80 I should turn the dive at 2000psi, do my SS and probably end the dive with 1800psi. Get a lot of repeat buddy dives doing that?

The rule of thirds is a mostly lazy device borrowed from technical diving for recreational divers to make up for a lack of real gas planning. It in no way tells the diver how much gas they actually need to ascend safely from their dive and instead just overly pads reserves to the point of ridiculousness.

Probably the people you seem to meet with poor skills has something to do with the fact that there's always a know it all Pro ready to hold their hands and take over thinking for them. Around here where DM's don't accompany divers on every dive we seem to be able to set our depths, stick to the plan AND look at our gauges - all at the same time.

Of course, we're not real recreational divers like you are...

 

[DCBC]

The exact last steps prior to their deaths is unknown. ...I would appreciate some links to all of these events so that I can get a sense of exactly what is happening in these annual double fatalities.

John, Buddy teams go missing more often that we like to acknowledge. Like you have mentioned, "the last steps prior to their deaths is unknown." The witnesses are not believed to have survived.

DAN has specified that 14% of fatalities are caused by insufficient gas (14 percent), with this being the initial triggering problem in 41% of cases. Although the exact reason of death cannot be determined for Buddy teams that go missing, I believe we can draw some reasonable inference based upon these statistics (it's highly likely that OOA was the triggering problem of many deaths).

Beanojones and I have reported being grabbed by divers who've panicked as a result of an OOA situations. I'm sure that there are other Guides and Instructors who may have had a similar experience. It doesn't take much imagination to determine the possible result involving an untrained diver who is placed in a diver rescue scenario, who possesses only minimal diving ability or experience. I'm sure that there are several Charter Operators on SB who could relate their own horror stories, none of which are likely to reside in DAN statistics.

DAN does not report diver panic or "near misses" that do not result in diver death or injury and not all cases are reported. I think my point in all this is to promote diver rescue training and increased in-water ability of all divers.

Scapa Flow missing divers feared dead - Transport - Scotsman.com Search for Red Sea divers ends - Divernet Rescue team searches for missing missing divers in Ipan | Jeff's Pirates Cove

---------- Post added June 16th, 2013 at 08:39 AM ----------

No it simply does will not become predictable, in variable open ocean conditions, and at variable depths. Conditions make the breathing rate increase, and variable depths make even a never change SAC rate not matter, since the depths vary so wildly.

Beyond just normal changes in workload, you have rightfully noted that panic is not predictable. What you are failing to take account of is that sliding scale towards full blown pani that causes enormous spikes in air consumption, which again makes SAC rate calculations largely meaningless.

SAC rate changes as a result of the conditions I noted. A diver who has stabilized their SAC can compare previous dives of similar complexity to the planned dive for dive planning purposes. In any event there is not that much difference between dives. Depth is irrelative as SAC is used to easily project actual consumption at any depth. I don't know about you but when I plan a dive, I don't plan for anyone to panic...

If the dive is planned properly, sufficient gas is available to address any reasonably foreseeable situation. Personally, I add tie-offs, or utilize safety divers/Assistants/DMs to increase the available gas.

 

[The Chairman]

I don't remember seeing any cases such as you say happen every year.

I can think of at least 4 such situations. Two in Florida alone! I have no idea if there was any bear hugging in the process, but the buddies died together which makes you simply wonder why.