What would you do: Molested at 100' by an OOA Diver

[agilis]

DCBC I have much respect for your perspective, but I want to adress the issue of an spg showing an incorrect reading. This happened to me only once, and I knew there was something wrong very quickly when the reading didn't show the drop I expected to see after two checks in less than 10 minutes between 60 and 90 fsw. It just sort of hung steady at about 1500 lbs when I knew it should have been less. I watched it continuously as I moved slowly toward the surface. Even after a deep inhale in was rock steady. I knew it was wrong, probably misfunctioning. It was, and I noticed only because I look at my spg not simply to see how much air I have left but mainly to monitor my air consumption at different depths and under differing circumstances. I probably do this much more often than needed, but this has never been a problem for me, since I'm not a working diver. No one taught or trained me to do this. It's just common sense. How can anyone not do this simple functional check? The spg is clipped near the bottom of my BC on a stretchy cord. Everything else is on my wrists except my compass, which I seldom use and which is on a tether in a pocket. I rely on but do not totally trust any equipment. Never have, never will. We all take chances and accidents /equipment failures are alway possible. Anticipate them.

 

[beanojones]

Techinical diving does involve an extended period of time at known depths (both at bottom and at deco stops). Since with few exceptions the overhead environment shields up one from conditions, and deco hangs (whether on a line or on a bag) are similarly depth restricted, and isolated from conditions.

Given those outlines SAC rates and gas planning makes enormous sense.

But that is well beyond Basic Scuba Discussions.

In the average recreational dive depth is completely variable, and conditions are too, so they SAC rate (rmv, and all the rest) become no more useful than the vague outlines of "I'm good on air" or "I use a lot of air". I routinely see tiny little Japanese divers increase their rate of air usage 5X with some change in conditions, so, really, what good is it to know their SAC in that case?

On the other hand, a diver who checks their gauge and checks their buddies all the time, can easily adapt to the current conditions and status, because they do not have expectations of how much they will be able to dive.

Not to mention the basic fact that divers fail at using tables, and those involve very little math. Why would burdening them with more preparation make them magically more likely to do more before a dive?

Here's what I see about beginner diver training: People try to teach too much, and so divers remember haphazardly what to do with things. Making divers do math to do gas planning means they simply will not do it. Since I myself never do it, since it is of little or no use in actual open water conditions, why should beginning divers be made to do it.

Rule of thirds, the end. Once divers want to do more than turn at 1/3, they might seek more info. But of they always dive rule of thirds (honestly), they'll never have to, no matter how challenging the dive is.

 

[DCBC]

DCBC ...We all take chances and accidents /equipment failures are alway possible. Anticipate them.

Unfortunately the attitude taken by some divers doesn't seem to account for the possibility of mechanical error. Still too many deaths occur every year as a result of equipment malfunction. I mentioned that I went OOA when my SPG indicated 800 psi. I had been only diving for 2 years, was use to diving with a J-Valve only. At that time a SPG was almost what a redundant gas source is today. "Why do you need an SPG? Rather overkill isn't it?" LOL ...Perhaps I got sloppy, was lazy, inexperienced or just depended too much on the bells and whistles, but when I needed my reserve, it had already been activated in error. I was totally OOA (regardless of 800 psi of indicated pressure). My Buddy was right there, so it didn't bite me in the *ss.

System failure isn't common, but today it happens more often than Divers realize. I agree that you have to bring your "A Game" to the Dive Site. This mean proper dive planning, well maintained equipment, a competent diving buddy and all the knowledge and skill that you can muster. We can't forget that we are entering an environment that will kill us within minutes. Amongst the fun and enjoyment, sometimes this is forgotten.

---------- Post added June 15th, 2013 at 10:40 AM ----------

...In the average recreational dive depth is completely variable, and conditions are too, so they SAC rate (rmv, and all the rest) become no more useful than the vague outlines of "I'm good on air" or "I use a lot of air". I routinely see tiny little Japanese divers increase their rate of air usage 5X with some change in conditions, so, really, what good is it to know their SAC in that case?

I believe in giving my Students the tools that they can apply beyond just the training course. The gas consumption of any diver will stabilize and become relatively predictable for that person in-time. Situational awareness is a big part of diving safety. If the Diver takes time to figure out his SAC and know how to apply it, he will be better off for it. This is analogous to planting seeds, the pay-off isn't immediate, but you can only harvest thorns without it. I don't train Divers to accomplish a dozen dives, but open the door on what I hope will become a life-long love affair with the underwater world.

On the other hand, a diver who checks their gauge and checks their buddies all the time, can easily adapt to the current conditions and status, because they do not have expectations of how much they will be able to dive.

This will not allow them to plan their dive, but to be reactive to the pressure gage. I'm not saying that checking the SPG isn't important (of course it is), but the best answer to an OOA diver doesn't have to be either or.

Not to mention the basic fact that divers fail at using tables, and those involve very little math. Why would burdening them with more preparation make them magically more likely to do more before a dive?

If Divers fail at using tables (assuming that their decompression calculations are dependent on them) they shouldn't be certified in the first place. Proper dive planning isn't a burden and if you believe it is, you shouldn't be an Instructor. If you were certified with CMAS, you wouldn't be.

Here's what I see about beginner diver training: People try to teach too much, and so divers remember haphazardly what to do with things. Making divers do math to do gas planning means they simply will not do it. Since I myself never do it, since it is of little or no use in actual open water conditions, why should beginning divers be made to do it.

Divers that are haphazard either are not trained properly, or require more time to assimilate their training. I assume that you don't do it because you either don't feel the need (perhaps because of repetition and the daily grind), believe you are bullet-proof, or you dive with a computer in non-trying conditions of environment or depth. Your answer to any diving problem is that you can CESA from 100'.

Rule of thirds, the end. Once divers want to do more than turn at 1/3, they might seek more info. But of they always dive rule of thirds (honestly), they'll never have to, no matter how challenging the dive is.

There is more to safe diving than the rule of thirds. I hope you or your Students never have learn this the hard way.

 

[The Chairman]

Anyone can be taken by surprise.

Rly? Those who don't plan are often surprised. When I first started diving in 1969, I only had a J-Valve. Every dive resulted in an OOA. Yes, I flipped to my reserve, but every so often the reserve was already flipped. Since I started diving with SPGs, I have never ever run out of air. More importantly, none of my buddies have never, ever run out of air. My students are taught that they need to monitor not just their air, but their buddy's as well.

Instructors who share opinions about OOA situation without being in many of them are talking out the wrong end of the body.

O rly? If you have that many students running out of air, than I would suspect that you're not doing an adequate job of teaching them. I always smile when I hear instructors' tales of daring do in rescuing their students from various calamities. I don't have a single such tale of woe about my students. Does that make me a crappy or competent instructor? An OOA is a sign of FAILURE and not a proof of competency.

I personally think that gas management and gas planning are not going to help in many cases, and in many cases, gas planning procedures actually interfere with proper in dive behavior because they build a false sense of security about the need to constantly check SPGs.

:gans:​

Wow. All my OW students learn to calculate their SAC and they also learn to track their gas as well as their buddy's gas. You think this is wrong? I am underwhelmed by your logic for this.

It seems to me that a Guide's ability to CESA from depth increases that Guide's confidence in a diver OOA situation,

The guide's responsibility is to prevent problems from developing into situations. When I guide, I monitor all of my charges' air supply. That's my job. As an instructor, I monitor all of my students' air supply. That's my job. You can't allow yourself to be distracted when others are in your care. It's no accident that I have never, ever had a client deplete their entire air supply. I learned a long time ago that a supervisor really had to live up to the name with their super vision. Your situational awareness needs to be in top form, or give the job to someone else.

So how does anyone prevent a diver from going OOA?

Check their gauges when you check yours. Repeat as necessary dependent on depth, exertion, cold etc. There is no excuse for you or your buddy to go OOA. For the record, I don't run my vehicle out of gas either. It's why we have gauges on them and not idiot lights.

 

[DCBC]

Rly? Those who don't plan are often surprised. When I first started diving in 1969, I only had a J-Valve. Every dive resulted in an OOA. Yes, I flipped to my reserve, but every so often the reserve was already flipped. Since I started diving with SPGs, I have never ever run out of air. More importantly, none of my buddies have never, ever run out of air. My students are taught that they need to monitor not just their air, but their buddy's as well.

The surprise I was referring to was being grabbed unexpectedly by a panicked diver. Situational awareness is however critical, but there are times where the situation can become beyond our control. I'd like to think I could handle any situation, but experience has proved me wrong (a Buddy pair not in my charge running out of gas at 180'). I agree with your comment that Students should be taught the need of monitoring their gas pressure and that of their Buddy's.

Your situational awareness needs to be in top form, or give the job to someone else.

Absolutely. My comment referred to a Guide's personal in-water ability and confidence. The higher the level of competence, the better able s/he is to look after those he is guiding.

 

[The Chairman]

The surprise I was referring to was being grabbed unexpectedly by a panicked diver.

in all my diving, I've only had two divers panic at depth. In both cases, I was the one impeding their rush to the surface by grabbing them. Most panicked divers have only one thing on their mind: getting to the surface, ASAP. One had her mask kicked off and it was tangled in her hair. The other was bitten by a moray while trying to grab a lobster. Both were intercepted and calmed down. The first continued the dive, the second and I proceeded to the boat doing a safety stop. I've seen a number of wide eyed divers from time to time, and I've had the crap scared out of me as well without any ensuing panic. I've even had a few divers bolt in the pool and two that were too afraid to descend once in OW. For my students, by the time they hit OW, they are comfortable and in control. If they are not, we continue to do more pool time until I am satisfied. My record is 16 pool sessions, but she was confident when we finally splashed.

 

[TSandM]

beano, I have NEVER read a thread where ANYONE has suggested that gas management obviates the necessity to monitor your gas while underwater; nor can I remember anyone reporting that because they plan their gas, they don't check it. Shoot, even I check my gas, when I am doing a dive I have done a couple hundred times before, where I know that the gas I have on my back would permit me to do the dive two or three TIMES before hitting minimum gas!

I would be completely shocked if you have actually had divers on your dives who understand proper dive planning, have analyzed the profile and the gas requirements for it, and then don't bother to check their gauges. They might not check ONE ANOTHER's gauges, but I'll bet my shirt that they check their own. In part this is because the fundamental attitude toward diving safety that is reflected by the willingness to do the planning, is reflected by responsible behavior underwater, too.

And your comments about doing deco in open water make me think you have not done much of it. I was forcibly reminded of decoing off the Rosalie Mueller in the Red Sea, where surface conditions SUCKED, and the upline we were using was not only heaving up and down, but making about 50 foot excursions back and forth as the ship swung. Or deco on the Thistlegorm, where the current was strong and staying on the upline was a chore. Yes, the deep stops may be placid (or not, depending on conditions at depth) but a lot of deco is done shallow, and any conditions your recreational divers are subjected to, a diver doing staged decompression in that environment is going to experience as well.

I call hogwash on that one.

 

[DCBC]

in all my diving, I've only had two divers panic at depth. In both cases, I was the one impeding their rush to the surface by grabbing them. Most panicked divers have only one thing on their mind: getting to the surface, ASAP. One had her mask kicked off and it was tangled in her hair. The other was bitten by a moray while trying to grab a lobster. Both were intercepted and calmed down. The first continued the dive, the second and I proceeded to the boat doing a safety stop. I've seen a number of wide eyed divers from time to time, and I've had the crap scared out of me as well without any ensuing panic. I've even had a few divers bolt in the pool and two that were too afraid to descend once in OW. For my students, by the time they hit OW, they are comfortable and in control. If they are not, we continue to do more pool time until I am satisfied. My record is 16 pool sessions, but she was confident when we finally splashed.

The problem with panic is that's it causes irrational behavior. I agree with you that most often the diver will have the urge to bolt to the surface. Yet divers are lost every year because they attempt to provide assistance and are overwhelmed. The result is all too often the death of both divers instead of one. In such cases the initial diver doesn't bolt to the surface, but acts in an irrational manner that causes their Buddy's death.

Having operated a dive charter business, I've had to assist a large number of certified divers over the years. This has assisted me in formulating an opinion of general diver competence (the certification criteria of many different Instructors from different Agencies). Diver's have attempted to grab me on several different occasions (once because a mask flooded with cold water unexpectedly). I can appreciate what Beanojones has to deal with. I don't however share his opinion.

I can't agree more with you, that Student's can gain the confidence they require in the pool. I use various drills to add task loading and build confidence which helps when it comes to problem solving in OW.

 

[supergaijin]

Beano you quite contradictory. On one hand you talk about the overwhelming numbers of your divers who run OOA while diving. Enough divers run OOA with you for you to practice 4min CESA. On the other, you talk about a very, very conservative dive/gas profile involving thirds- normally reserved for penetration dives.

At the same time you poo-poo the idea of actually giving divers the tools to calculate RMV and give them an understanding about diving deeper than typical OW depths. Multi-profile diving is proably the most common profile practiced internationally. AS this thread is indeed about 100' OOA, gas management and planning is valid. This is not rocket-science. Your Japanese divers should not have any trouble making the math- however pronouncing RMV may well prove tricky in 'Engurish'. Understanding your 'normal' RMV and having a record (logbook) of a stressed RMV (as seen in OW courses) is a pretty good indication of what may happen during a dive. However it will never take the place of confirming gas usage via the SPG- to talk so is a Strawman argument.

Colour me puzzled Beano, but I believe it is time better spent to teach gas management rather than harp on about a wishful 4min CESA. And expecting that the panicked diver suddenly relaxes at a safety stop.

I know I can do a CESA from depth, and an actual OOA diver has no ability to handle really anything. They have to be on the end of a long chain of stupid actions to get in that situation, so expecting them to do anything smart is silly. So I don't expect to be doing anything but panicking, and I count on my ability to basically handle anything underwater. Full panic, even. But once the OOA diver gets a reg in, and they are starting up, they usually calm down pretty quick. It takes a long time to get from 100 feet to the surface, and the OOA diver is usually pretty relaxed by the time we get to the safety stop hang tank, and are more than happy to switch to that reg.

 

[boulderjohn]

Yet divers are lost every year because they attempt to provide assistance and are overwhelmed. The result is all too often the death of both divers instead of one. In such cases the initial diver doesn't bolt to the surface, but acts in an irrational manner that causes their Buddy's death.

I read the DAN fatality report every year, going back for at least the last six years of reports. They are for some reason a bit behind the times, not having issued a report in a couple of years, but they do list and describe every known dive fatality in North America. I don't remember seeing any cases such as you say happen every year. I admit that I did not review them all prior to posting, and my memory is less than perfect.

There was a double fatality similar to what you describe mentioned on ScubaBoard a couple of years ago. In this very strange case, a very experienced diver (supposedly more then 400 dives) went OOA while hunting for lobster. He was severely overweighted, possibly to assist him in his lobstering activities, and was unable to stay on the surface without dropping his weights. Unfortunately, he had on a new weight-integrated BCD, and neither he nor his buddy could figure out how to ditch the weights. (????) Eventually he ended up sharing air with another diver. This other diver was using rental equipment, and for some reason the people who issued her rental equipment had decided that an alternate air source on the regulator set was an unnecessary luxury. (Yes, there is a lawsuit.) Consequently, they were practicing buddy breathing when last seen alive. The exact last steps prior to their deaths is unknown.

Other than that--a situation that hardly seems typical--I am unaware of any reports like that. I would appreciate some links to all of these events so that I can get a sense of exactly what is happening in these annual double fatalities.