What would you do: Molested at 100' by an OOA Diver

[MXGratefulDiver]

So how does anyone prevent a diver from going OOA?

So in my years of diving I know of four people who told me that they ran out of air during a dive. All four said the reason they ran out was they weren't watching their gauge/computer as close as they should. Most stories I have heard of folks going OOA involves just not paying attention. To me that's not really a matter of gas planning or management (although running OOA is not managing your gas) but it's a matter of being careless or complacent. I'm not sure there is any way to teach someone not to be this way. As an instructor you can tell your students to always keep a watch on their gas. You can hammer that home. You can tell them 50, 100, or 1000 times during a course. Is there an instructor out there that doesn't drill into their students to keep a watch on their gas. Most likely not. But folks still run out of air.

I would like to know the % of people who go OOA did so because they just didn't pay attention as opposed to they were watching everything but just failed to bring enough air with them to complete the dive.

... because it's easier to pay attention when you really understand why you should ...

As an example, one of the exercises in my AOW class is for the student to tell me, based on the plan, how much gas they're going to need for the deep dive. They have to determine, based on the plan, what their turn pressure should be, how much gas, in PSI, they'd need if they or their buddy had a catastrophic failure at the deepest part of the dive, and approximately how many cubic feet of gas they expect to use.

The point isn't to get them to do those things next time they go below 100 feet ... that'd be unrealistic. It's to have them understand something fundamental.

It often happens that they come back to me and inform me they can't do that dive. When I ask them why not, they say "because my tank isn't big enough".

Hello ... you win ...

It's often the case that people who go OOA don't do so because they weren't paying attention ... it's because they had no business doing that dive on that tank in the first place.

Once they made the decision to go, everything else that happens falls back, ultimately, to the fact that they made a bad decision before the dive even got started. The OOA can be due to quite a number of things ... inattention, peer pressure, or just plain ignorance because they never really learned how to determine when it was time to turn around and head back in. But ultimately it gets back to the fact that they weren't carrying enough gas to go where they intended to go. And by the time they come to that realization, it's usually too late.

Here's another thought ... given similarly configured and experienced divers ... if you run OOA or LOA, how much gas do you think your buddy's likely gonna have? Enough to get the two of you to the surface safely?

Without some concept of gas management, how would you know?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[agilis]

I can remember posting here a couple of years ago, one of my typically overlong descriptions of some experience or other in which I mentioned that I had long ago developed the compulsive habit of checking my spg every 5 minutes or so. There were a few negative mildly mocking observations. I replied, explaining that the green glow from the gauges gave me pleasant mescaline flashbacks, but in truth it's a habit I cultivate for other reasons. Gas management is not a term that was used when I was certified more than 40 years ago. It was called not being a complete moron.

 

[DCBC]

So how does anyone prevent a diver from going OOA?

Thinking that you can control such a situation is the height of arrogance. I've gone OOA when my SPG said I had 800 psi. How could this be prevented? You teach the preventions (best practice) and prepare for the worst (redundant gas, close Buddy contact and CESA). This is why one side of the coin is only a partial answer to the problem. Prevention and response must be covered adequately.

So in my years of diving I know of four people who told me that they ran out of air during a dive. All four said the reason they ran out was they weren't watching their gauge/computer as close as they should. Most stories I have heard of folks going OOA involves just not paying attention. To me that's not really a matter of gas planning or management (although running OOA is not managing your gas) but it's a matter of being careless or complacent. I'm not sure there is any way to teach someone not to be this way. As an instructor you can tell your students to always keep a watch on their gas. You can hammer that home. You can tell them 50, 100, or 1000 times during a course. Is there an instructor out there that doesn't drill into their students to keep a watch on their gas. Most likely not. But folks still run out of air.

Some agencies do not require gas management to be a part of their certification program. Divers can be certified and have absolutely no idea. I teach OW students to project their gas requirements and develop a method where they can do so considering similar diving conditions. The first few years of diving (in the days of the "J-Valve" and J and SPG), I experienced two OOA situations. I've come to the aid of two Instructors on one dive who went OOA. They had no appreciation of Gas projection. It happens. As far as statistics are concerned, much more often than should be acceptable to the certification agencies and Instructors.

I would like to know the % of people who go OOA did so because they just didn't pay attention as opposed to they were watching everything but just failed to bring enough air with them to complete the dive.

Regardless, it's due to a lack of planning. Death occurred in many cases because they couldn't reach their Buddy or were diving deeper than they could safely do an emergency surface ascent. Regardless of a person's training, accidents happen. No one is immune. That said, if a person isn't prepared, that's the fault of the Instructor and/or the certification agency imo. If they are prepared and die, well if it happened to me, I could accept my fate as I would consider myself responsible. Unfortunately however, it happens too often to unprepared and inexperienced divers who trust that their Instructors will adequately prepare them to dive safely "unsupervised."

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Which is kind of the point.

There are many ways to handle it:
0. Not help in certain situations
1. React to the situation in the tried and true, approach from the rear etc.
1a. React to the panicked OOA diver aggressively potentially increasing his/her chances of injury
2. Raise one own skill level to the point where an OOA diver in need can do whatever, and one can still handle it.

(I choose 2. But then, I do this for a living.)

I am not going to drown just because I am without a reg underwater. Others may not be as confident, and knowing their own limits lets them decide what they will do

I have had a panicked diver do X to me (where X is just about anything one can imagine), and as a full-time dive professional, I feel like it's just part of what I am supposed to be able to handle. Of course, to get to where one can handle some X like losing a reg at 100 feet, and then getting bear hugged, one has to have practiced handling that situation by practicing CESAs in that situation.

While I think most divers think (appropriately) first of their own safety, there are different ways to ensure safety, and that first is the decision of whether to help or not. There are also different approaches to helping. I know from experience that while controlling a diver from the rear is the best play in terms of controlling the diver's body, it is not likely to work with a borderline panicked diver who will just expend effort trying to turn around to figure out what is going on. And there is almost no way to effectively manage an OOA diver in that position.

But then again once a borderline panicked diver faces us, they are probably going to doing something not so good to us. I am cool with that. Most people should rightly not be cool with that.

Remember the topic came up in first place because someone wanted to develop more confidence in their abilities in the water, especially when doing deep dives. Being able to consistently do CESAs from 100 feet/30 m of water will certainly make for a more confident deep diver. More confident, apparently, than many instructors who seem to doubt such a thing is possible.

(This topic, as may be obvious from some of the parenthetical comments made, has been 'discussed' in the "Instructors arguing with other Instructors" forum.)

There are some of us, however, who know that CESAs from 100 feet are not just theoretically, but actually, possible, because we have done them. At least three of us in this thread, if my count is right.

At no point ever have I suggested I would wrestle anyone who is out of air. Quite the contrary, I consider it irresponsible for a dive professional to do so anything but proceed to the surface post haste giving whatever aid the OOA diver needs, though wrestling may be what a diver might feel the need to do. Several other posters have suggested head butts and knifing them, which of course I am all for, because nothing says safety like breaking someone's mask or stabbing them! Good on you for spotting the clearly dangerous behavior and calling me out on it. It's not what I said, but hey does that matter?

Not has anyone ever said OOA is proper dive procedure, least of all me. Nor do I practice 100 Foor CESAs with divers in need. I do them not practice them with divers, I practice them by myself.

It's amazing that in a two line post you have managed to so completely misrepresent what I have said. And then cast random aspersions with open ended questions! Well done! But then again, I guess that how one wins the internet.

Congrats, you won on the internet!

Beano... first you say that these skills MUST be practiced in a realistic manner and you state you do it with another diver (hugging you) now later, you say you practice it alone... Why has the story changed so drastically about what your typical training regime consists of?

I just ain't buying what you are selling Beano.. I think your 4 minute swimming ascent while exhaling it "hot air" and now you seem to clearly contradict yourself in the same thread about your typical training practices..?

No wonder you have chosen to disregard my suggestion to provide us a video of your training practices..

 

[elmer fudd]

I take exception to anyone posting in a public forum that gas management and gas planning interfere with proper in dive [sic] behavior.

one of the main faults in basic training is that students are NOT required to learn how to manage their gas volume and instead are told that bull**** such as CESA is OK.

Perhaps you and I have a different view of what constitutes good diving behavior.

A CESA is an emergency ascent, and emergencies should always be avoided, but a CESA is also a basic skill, like being able to clear your mask or orally inflate your BC.

 

[danvolker]

A good driver should never get in a spin while driving their car....but...if for some reason--avoiding an errant move by another driver, they end up in a spin, they should have trained themselves to easily get out of the spin....

 

[elmer fudd]

A good driver should never get in a spin while driving their car....but...if for some reason--avoiding an errant move by another driver, they end up in a spin, they should have trained themselves to easily get out of the spin....

Exactly, and isn't part of the point of NDL diving that you have the option of making a CESA?

 

[chrpai]

Exactly, and isn't part of the point of NDL diving that you have the option of making a CESA?

Yes, but you'll also note that according to the PADI RDP that dives of 100' *REQUIRE* a safety stop. You don't get that with a CESA.

Personally what I think is nuts is that they talk about redundant air systems in the deep dive of Advanced but how many people actually dive a redundant air source?

I'm all for buddy skills and trusting your buddy... but I know I've been on a lot of dives where that trust was misplaced. Between that and getting into solo diving, I've decided to sling an AL40 on most dives. It shocks me that so few people, this board would be an exception no doubt, don't do this.

So yes I was taught buddy breathing, CESA and buoyant ascents. But that doesn't mean I think any of them are good options. I'd only use a CESA on shallow dives like in the upper keys or bahamas where I've basically been diving my safety stop all along.


Self Reliance....

 

[beanojones]

I take exception to anyone posting in a public forum that gas management and gas planning interfere with proper in dive [sic] behavior.

one of the main faults in basic training is that students are NOT required to learn how to manage their gas volume and instead are told that bull**** such as CESA is OK.

Perhaps you and I have a different view of what constitutes good diving behavior.

Like you (but on the opposite side), I take exception to anyone posting in a public forum that gas planning and gas management promote proper in dive (sic) behavior.

Here's what I see repeatedly from people who 'know' their SAC rates: They get to a new place in new conditions and they think SAC rate matters, and the are surprised that they run low/out unexpectedly, because they expect to know how much air they have left. Unfortunately, it really does not matter how much air one expects to have. It only matters how much air one has. In every thread where people talk about how they know their SAC rate and plan accordingly, a good number of posters say matter of factly that they never have to check their gauges because they know how much air they have. Which as I get to know firsthand is silly buggers.

If every dive one does is in a hard bottom quarry at a constant depth, then I guess the SAC rate and gas planning matters (but to be honest, I don't know and never will never know anything about diving in quarries, or recreational dives to a constant depth). When it is in the open ocean, at recreational depths (and most importantly, the completely varied depths) and the completely varied conditions that recreational dives cover, then those depths and those conditions matter far more than SAC rate., which really only works on square profiles in pool like conditions. It's worth knowing the ballpark of "I'm good on air" or "I use a lot of air", but since the depths and conditions vary so wildly, SAC rate is beside the point, since the factors make a SAC rate make any sense swing wildly at value to value at every point in the dive.

When divers fully expect that they will be using vastly different rates of air on different dives, then they make checking gauges and responding to them default behavior, instead of expecting to know how much air they have. Thus not planning, and instead interacting is safer in those conditions, than planning and thinking one knows.

Which is exactly why this entire topic came up, because people come to Hawaii, confuse clarity and light penetration with depth, and run OOA at depth. In this case, knowing SAC rate is beside the point, doing gas planning is beside the point. Watching the gauge and making sure your buddy is watching his, and getting confirmation does.

(Funny that. We just had a thread about people being bothered about getting asked repeatedly about their remaning air. That is exactly what I am talking about when I say that knowing SAC rate interferes with proper dive behavior. Because clearly it was doing so in that case.)

---------- Post added June 15th, 2013 at 02:12 AM ----------

It seems to me you can practice the emergency situation in 15ft and not 100ft. Putting people in real danger to practice the possibilities doesn't sound like good dive training.

As mentioned, and to clarify, no one is suggesting any practicing of emergency situations with divers is happening at 100 ft. I do practice stuff by myself all the time.* I also suggested to someone looking for increased confidence that practicing a CESA from depth would increase his confidence.

Also as DCBC mentioned practicing a CESA presents no real danger to anyone, or it would not be in the OW course. Buoyant Emergency ascents have been removed from the course, because they do present a hazard.

*I sometimes wonder if people are aware just how much more comfortable/capable/confident in the water full time dive guides are, that they can even question the ability of a full time dive professional to do this kind of stuff. I personally think it's the duty of every full timer to be able to do these sorts of things. On top of that, as freed from the need of elaborate exposure protection that tropical guides are, it's just the case, that there is essentially nothing that we have not done, or at least tried, underwater, shorting of strangling cats. Herding cats, we do daily.

We get to see more stuff happening too.

 

[DCBC]

Here's what I see repeatedly from people who 'know' their SAC rates: They get to a new place in new conditions and they think SAC rate matters, and the are surprised that they run low/out unexpectedly, because they expect to know how much air they have left. Unfortunately, it really does not matter how much air one expects to have. It only matters how much air one has. In every thread where people talk about how they know their SAC rate and plan accordingly, a good number of posters say matter of factly that they never have to check their gauges because they know how much air they have. Which as I get to know firsthand is silly buggers..

I teach divers to calculate their SAC on each dive. In this way, over time they can refer to a dive that they have previously accomplished and be in a better position to project their gas profile (diving conditions, expected degree of work/current, water temperature, etc.). They should eventually be able to estimate what their cylinder pressure is without looking at their gage. This doesn't mean that they don't have to, but it reduces the possibility of them attempting a dive deeper than their safe diving envelope (SDE) and going OOA.

Are you suggesting that Gas projection doesn't matter? That Instructors are wasting their time and should be simply telling their Students to look at their SPG? Is that how you teach your Students?

I check my pressure during a dive and regardless of the experience of my Buddy (who is completely capable of looking after himself) I check his psi at certain points in the Dive Plan. Like an aviation check list, tank pressure is an item on the list (I leave little to chance). The "Oh, I thought you were OK" just isn't good enough. I want to know my Buddy is ok and I want him to know my situation. It's part of the Buddy communication process.

The Buddy System isn't defined as two solo divers diving together. If you solo dive, you are the only one responsible for your safety. If you dive with a Buddy you both have that responsibility for each other. If the Buddy isn't aware of this, their not a Buddy. The Buddy isn't just a hang around who can report where your body was last seen. Perhaps this is something that has been lost over the years with the drop in Standards.

Most of my diving is deep in overhead environments. I realize that my Students have a different SDE than I do. I'm also aware that the foundation of many skills for technical diving begins during initial training. This is built upon at each stage and must be consistent. A Diver's education (imo) is maximized when good habits start their development at the onset. Good Dive Planning, use of the SPG, Buddy closeness and communication, CESA, submerged rescue are only part of the initial training program. If a diver is certified to dive unsupervised, they better be prepared to do so before anyone expects me to give them a C-Card.