What would you do: Molested at 100' by an OOA Diver

[MXGratefulDiver]

* As I have noted in discussion about 'gas management' and 'gas planning' in that I2I forum, I personally think that gas management and gas planning are not going to help in many cases, and in many cases, gas planning procedures actually interfere with proper in dive behavior because they build a false sense of security about the need to constantly check SPGs.

... but your idea of proper in-dive behavior includes practicing 100-foot CESA's while wrestling with a panicked diver ... which makes one wonder how that diver got panicked in the first place ... and why they need your air ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[beanojones]

At no point ever have I suggested I would wrestle anyone who is out of air. Quite the contrary, I consider it irresponsible for a dive professional to do so anything but proceed to the surface post haste giving whatever aid the OOA diver needs, though wrestling may be what a diver might feel the need to do. Several other posters have suggested head butts and knifing them, which of course I am all for, because nothing says safety like breaking someone's mask or stabbing them! Good on you for spotting the clearly dangerous behavior and calling me out on it. It's not what I said, but hey does that matter?

Not has anyone ever said OOA is proper dive procedure, least of all me. Nor do I practice 100 Foor CESAs with divers in need. I do them not practice them with divers, I practice them by myself.

It's amazing that in a two line post you have managed to so completely misrepresent what I have said. And then cast random aspersions with open ended questions! Well done! But then again, I guess that how one wins the internet.

Congrats, you won on the internet!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I think this whole conversation is sad, beano ... I think it's even sadder that a dive professional doesn't recognize that an effort to prevent an emergency has more intrinsic value than an effort to respond to one.

My two lines were sarcasm ... of course ... which is how I tend to respond to what I perceive as silliness. And silliness is how I'd describe several posts in this thread ... many of them written by dive instructors ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Doppler]

* As I have noted in discussion about 'gas management' and 'gas planning' in that I2I forum, I personally think that gas management and gas planning are not going to help in many cases, and in many cases, gas planning procedures actually interfere with proper in dive behavior because they build a false sense of security about the need to constantly check SPGs.

I take exception to anyone posting in a public forum that gas management and gas planning interfere with proper in dive [sic] behavior.

one of the main faults in basic training is that students are NOT required to learn how to manage their gas volume and instead are told that bull**** such as CESA is OK.

Perhaps you and I have a different view of what constitutes good diving behavior.

 

[DCBC]

I think what the OP referenced has been somewhat misinterpreted. It seems to me that a Guide's ability to CESA from depth increases that Guide's confidence in a diver OOA situation, as described (which makes sense to a degree). This has somehow started a prevention vs. reaction discussion and other spin-offs. There is nothing the matter with an Instructor teaching (or practicing) Emergency Ascent / CESA from deeper depths. This does not mean that Gas Management isn't also taught. I know I teach both.

What's more revealing to me, is that neither the OOA Diver (or his Buddy) seemed to have any clue about the amount of gas that was available. Moreover, that it was likely that neither of these divers were prepared through training to undertake an underwater rescue of the other. It fell to the Guide, despite both Divers being "certified to dive independently."

As I've already mentioned, DAN statistics show that in over 40% of Diver Fatalities, the trigger was "insufficient gas." Despite this, there are certification agencies that don't require a diver to be trained in gas management. This is disgraceful! Why aren't Instructors teaching this? Is this not the real message of this thread and not the actions of one Guide? Divers with minimal competence continue to be certified. This is something we all should be concerned about. Let's talk prevention...

 

[Adventure-Ocean]

It seems to me you can practice the emergency situation in 15ft and not 100ft. Putting people in real danger to practice the possibilities doesn't sound like good dive training.

 

[DCBC]

It seems to me you can practice the emergency situation in 15ft and not 100ft. Putting people in real danger to practice the possibilities doesn't sound like good dive training.

No danger whatsoever. They keep their reg in their mouth and gently hum their way to the safety stop. If they want a breath, they just breathe.

Not every difficult and dangerous thing is suitable for training, but only that which is conducive to success in achieving the object of our effort.
Epictetus

 

[BDSC]

What's more revealing to me, is that neither the OOA Diver (or his Buddy) seemed to have any clue about the amount of gas that was available.......As I've already mentioned, DAN statistics show that in over 40% of Diver Fatalities, the trigger was "insufficient gas." Despite this, there are certification agencies that don't require a diver to be trained in gas management. This is disgraceful! Why aren't Instructors teaching this? Is this not the real message of this thread and not the actions of one Guide? Divers with minimal competence continue to be certified. This is something we all should be concerned about. Let's talk prevention...

So how does anyone prevent a diver from going OOA?

So in my years of diving I know of four people who told me that they ran out of air during a dive. All four said the reason they ran out was they weren't watching their gauge/computer as close as they should. Most stories I have heard of folks going OOA involves just not paying attention. To me that's not really a matter of gas planning or management (although running OOA is not managing your gas) but it's a matter of being careless or complacent. I'm not sure there is any way to teach someone not to be this way. As an instructor you can tell your students to always keep a watch on their gas. You can hammer that home. You can tell them 50, 100, or 1000 times during a course. Is there an instructor out there that doesn't drill into their students to keep a watch on their gas. Most likely not. But folks still run out of air.

I would like to know the % of people who go OOA did so because they just didn't pay attention as opposed to they were watching everything but just failed to bring enough air with them to complete the dive.

 

[boulderjohn]

I would like to know the % of people who go OOA did so because they just didn't pay attention as opposed to they were watching everything but just failed to bring enough air with them to complete the dive.

Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference.

I think a lot of people who run out of air because they did not check their gauges did not check their gauges (yet) because they were deeper than they were used to diving and did not realize how much faster they go through their gas at that depth. That's gas management.

I think a lot of people diving deeper than they are used to may check their gauges but not really know when they should begin their ascent. Working with an OW student a week or so ago, I posed this question: if you are diving at 100 feet with an Aluminum 80 tank, at what PSI should you begin your ascent, knowing you will want to do a safety stop. He gave it a lot of thought and decided that 500 PSI would be plenty. We then had a discussion about gas management.

When teaching the PADI tables, I point out that the NDL for 100 feet is 20 minutes. I then show them that if they are planning to do 20 minutes at 100 feet with an AL 80, they may have a rude surprise the first time they check their SPG. That's gas management.

 

[Doppler]

So how does anyone prevent a diver from going OOA?

Teach them gas management... SAC rates, RMV all that stuff.

...You can tell them 50, 100, or 1000 times during a course. Is there an instructor out there that doesn't drill into their students to keep a watch on their gas. Most likely not. But folks still run out of air.

And until the community gets away from telling divers that "experienced divers can make 10 litres of gas last four hours..." or similar bull****, and until we ditch phrases like air-hog, divers will be embarrassed / reluctant to call a dive on gas limits... unless properly trained.