What to do when an instructor is out of line?

[Doc]

This weekend, I had probably the worst experience since I started diving.

Just wait, it will get better

Right now I'm questioning if the problem is the instructor, Course Director, or the shop. I've thought through if the issue is me, and I stand by what I did.

The root issue is that after a dive, the instructor surfaced and began cussing me out and refusing to discuss the dive. I feel this is extremely inappropriate.

From what you say, yes, that behavior would be extremely inappropriate.

The class was PADI Deep Diver Specialty...My experience is that I'm a relatively new diver, with about 25 dives. I have my Rescue Diver certification, consider myself proficient, aspire to be better with buoyancy, and just enrolled in DM class.

Wow, that set of facts made me stop for a second. You are extremely well spoken in terms of your post, you paint a clear picture, you had me until right there... but I haven't seen any "proficient" divers present themselves after after 25 dives.

To say the least, I don't care for Lake Travis because it's very dark and the viz sucks.

The dive team was the instructor, myself, and another student.

"Team", meaning Instructor and two students.

I moved my light up and down across my buddy, to signal that I had a problem. Unfortunately she didn't stop, but I did. I stopped, turned vertical (from horizontal) and tried to equalize. No go. At this point I was separated and unable to equalize so I slowly ascended while trying to equalize. After ascending about 15 feet I was able to equalize. At this point I was separated and I stayed put for about 30 seconds before deciding to slowly ascend to 15 feet, do a 3 minute safety stop, and surface to look for my teammates.

Perfect.

.... at which point I lost my cool and ripped into him verbally for being unprofessional and acting like a 5 year old.

See, under stress it does make you nutty, yes?

I then spoke to the course director for about 2 hours. Most of the time he tried to pin it back on me telling me that I had endangered my buddy and that I should have gone back up the chain and stayed put.

Up the chain and stayed put. If you were descending on a sloping bottom, what chain was that? And stayed put where?

I feel that yes, I could have done things differently, but we had not discussed what to do if separated. Because a dive light was required and no discussion had been done I was operating under night dive rules which require aborting the dive if separated.

Not sure of the distinction here between night dives/lights and any other separation situation.

My buddy was with the instructor and therefore not in immediate harm. I was the one who became separated because my buddy and the instructor did not see my signal that I had a problem.

I made what I thought was the best decision for safe diving. I signaled and my buddy didn't see it.

With you so far.

The instructor never stopped and checked with me or my buddy during our descent from 30 to 74 feet.

And you know that how? You don't have to stop to take a quick glance and see if your ducks are in a row. I wear a parabolic mirror on my wrist. Once divers get past 45', they usually have no other issues with ear clearing. He should have looked and known for sure, though, you're right.

I've emailed the shop owner, copied the course director, and copied the instructor and outlined that I think this is unacceptable. I've indicated that I won't do business with them if this isn't dealt with. My expectation is that this is a QA issue and that the instructor should be referred to PADI QA by the shop.

What you want: The instructor should be referred to PADI for cussing you out when he was under stress. And what is that to serve?

That would demonstrate to me that the shop values customer service, acknowledges the problem, and wants to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Go somewhere else. Buy a clue.

I feel like it's my responsibility as a customer and diver to refer it to QA if the shop owner won't.

Am I right here? This has shaken my trust of the instructors because I feel like there was an attempt to cover up behavior that shouldn't be tolerated.

You have 25 dives and are ready to begin your DM program. Sit back and learn from this experience, decide how you want to shape your communications styles and behaviors in the future.

******* What I wish had happened*****

- Instructor should have stated the dive objectives and required buddy and I to plan the dive.

This didn't happen? This is the first you mentioned it.

- Instructor should have allowed us to run the dive and only taken control of the skills portion. Maybe one student lead descent and one student lead ascent. This would demonstrate that we have mastery of the material as opposed to being able to just dive the tour.

An interesting proposal. Yes, next time you should indeed be more vocal as you thought, volunteering such suggestions.

- Instructor should have covered a separation plan if he didn't want us to surface when separated.

Yes, true, but are you saying that he contradicted that specifically?

- Instructor should have done meaningful knowledge reviews of course material (as opposed to reading the question and the answers)

First you have mentioned it. Possibly the instructor gauged your female buddy and you as well as a proficient diver and went over the material as much as he believed he needed to. Did this cause an issue with the dive?

- The descent would have been slower

"Would have been slower" if you had planned the dive? Okay, I understand, but the pace of the descent is irrelevant

because it is a challenging dive

And for a "proficient diver", what made it challenging?

and 2 of the 3 divers are relatively new.

Yet... Okay, I'm beating you up here by repeating the "proficient" word and "DM" reference. But it's only a thwack to make you think about your experience level versus your perceptions.

We would have included check points where we stop, make sure everyone is fine, and then decide to continue deeper.

You are correct- in a way, but "checkpoints" are irrelevant- the Instructor should have been watching you- but you'll learn that in DM Class.

- Instructor should have expressed concern when we separated,

When he noticed that he probably swallowed his tongue.

listended to what happened, and debriefed the dive with suggestions on alternate strategies.

Yes he should have.

From your re-telling- he was probably incredibly shaken over the fact that for a fleeting instant he thought he croaked a student.

The guy probably didn't want to ream out the female student who completed the dive, ream her out for not noticing where her buddy was. This points up a problem you will grow more to realize later, but has applications in any situation. When a buddy team is a three-way, no one watches anyone. You and her were buddies, here.

You lost contact with her just as much as she lost contact with you.

So your buddy didn't notice when you flashed her with your light.

Let me understand this.

Either you were at the same depth, thus you could have approached her and grabbed her.

Or... you were trying to signal a diver from above their depth with a light.

"I moved my light up and down across my buddy, to signal that I had a problem."

That does not work. The light must flash across an object that the buddy is observing. She was looking at the same murkiness as you were.

So, the light didn't work, you immediately switched to another standard method for contacting your "team"?

Making noise. Kind of irrelevant for contacting her, because most newer divers are oblivious, but your instructor should have heard you when you banged your tank with your dive knife.

You did do that, right? It's covered in some class or the other.

Learn from it, let it go, move on. If you want to progress through the Pro System, do so and avoid this clown at all times in the future.

 

[knowone]

Twenty five minutes on a platform is a nice time for a snooze. What did you talk at the course director about for almost two hours. Solo diving is good.

 

[Hotpuppy]

Twenty five minutes on a platform is a nice time for a snooze. What did you talk at the course director about for almost two hours. Solo diving is good.

The course director wanted to hear my side of it. And then he tried to pin me into a corner using the argument that I had abandoned my buddy, should have followed the separation protocol from another dive at another platform with another dive instructor, etc. I called BS on that and politely held my ground. I then asked what impact this should or would have on my DM course and was told to "pretend it didn't exist" and that he would cover it with that instructor. I don't like that answer either, and called that instructor and told her I would not be in class today and that I needed to get past this. I also pushed him to address the instructor conduct although I still think the focus of the call was on me and trying to question my judgement. I got chastised for "judging an instructor" and told that I wasn't qualified to do that, to which I countered that it was still piss poor customer service. In the sales business we call that FUD - Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Had the course director acknowledged the problem (inappropriate instructor conduct), apologized, and then proceeded to debrief the dive I would have been fine with it. Instead the method of action was to discount my previous dive experience with 4 or 5 other MSDT and tell me that they have to determine if it's me, the environment, or a conflict with the instructor. I don't begrudge the course director. In fact I appreciate him taking the time to have a very long conversation with me. Part of the conversation was regarding the Deep class, part on the instructor, part on the DM course, part on if I should be in the DM Course (we had a few discussions about this before I enrolled in the class), and part on wether my reaction was appropriate. He did acknowledge that I was right to avoid injury, so again it's not all bad. I don't agree with everything and that is why I escalated it to the LDS Owner.

The class started on Wednesday and we had one session into it. Another student was joining the class and couldn't make the Sunday class anyhow, so slowing down for a minute to debrief this wasn't likely to be that big of a monkey wrench.

My logic was that my mind was focused on this and that I need to resolve this before I can concentrate on class. If that instructor had disagreed she would have called me back to discuss it. Going to class with a chip on my shoulder isn't right and I have higher standards of conduct for myself so I excused myself as professionally as I could.

Right now I'm evaluating if the shop holds the same customer service standards and instructor conduct expectations that I do. If the issue is isolated to the instructor then we will put this behind us and move on. If on the other hand there is a disconnect then as nasty as it is, this isn't the shop for me.

I think someone else brought up a good point that had been in my mind .... I need to put some more recreational dives under my belt. Training is good, but it's not a replacement for recreational dives. Anyhow, that's another conversation that belongs in the GoPro area.... so I'll stay on topic.

 

[Bonairetrip]

Caveats: a) I am not a dive professional; and b) we only have one side of the issue.

The Obvious: a) The instructor was beyond unprofessional in not debriefing; b) The plan was either incomplete or not fully understood by the student; c) The plan was pretty poor to begin with (I hate the mixing of the classes -- in the water or on land); d) The student is gung ho in terms of training (# of classes and how he takes the classes).

Further Thoughts:
I think the OP is, generally speaking, correct but there are a lot of things he could have done better as well. Many he had outlined in his posts. Many were addressed by Grateful Diver. To his credit, it seems like he has taken many of the comments on this thread to heart. A few other thoughts:
a) I suspect the OP can be perceived as aggressive (if not confrontational) towards the instuctor in class. The OP probably views this as nothing personal and as helping improve the instruction. The instructor probably views this as disruptive (at best). Clashes in style rarely go well for either party.
b) At the time of the class, the student was all training and very little independant diving. Classes are valuable but it was too easy to rely on your instructor to identify and mitigate risks. Dive planning and execution are much different when it is all on you and your buddy.
c) The OP had to stop his decent (no question). One of the issues with insta-buddies (and that is what he had) is the failure to establish a clear way of communicating. As another poster noted, shining a dive light one the back of someone will not get their attention.
d) The OP does need to be a more compliant student, at least in one isntance. If there are rules to the dive, the time to debate them (or understand them or ask the why) is before you get in the water. What was perfectly logical decision for the OP (hanging on the line) was probably viewed at the time by the instructor as a clear sign that the OP was VERY narced.
e) The OP seems to go back and forth in recognizing how very limited his experience he really has.

Again, I offer no excuses for the instructor -- I am just pointing out some of the other issues in play.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

There were two instructors. The OW students went with the 2nd instructor back to the surface..... My buddy and I went with our instructor on the training dive. Our instructor was acting as DM on the platform with the OW students while they did their standards. My Buddy and I had full tanks to start and I believe I had 2300 when the descent began.

Unacceptable. The whole set up was unacceptable. If you are on a training dive, your instructor has no business double dipping different classes. It is unsafe and unprofessional. To let you sit and breathe through your air before taking you on a deep dive is just wrong, no matter how they try to rationalize it.

I am an instructor and shop owner. I have an opinion. In no way, would I have allowed instructors to book that many training dives concurrently. It is unsafe and against standards. I would Never allow one of my instructors to get away with cursing at a student. You do Not do that. Again, unprofessional and not productive. This whole situation could have gone much worse.

Now, my thoughts about you. You obviously are hooked on diving and want to go far. That is a good thing. I feel, based on what I've read here, that you need to take some time. You need to dive in many different conditions and become comfortable to the point of blase about all them. When you are, you are ready to train as a dm. Enjoy diving for a while, and you will sort all this out.

You were treated badly and not trained well. Insult to injury. The instructor was projecting his own failure onto you. Do not accept that. You had trouble equalizing. He should have been checking every few feet on you and your buddy on descent. A deep training dive in night conditions was poor planning on his part. DM'ing another OW class was stupid, as was having an AOW class in that mix at the same time. He made a whole mess of piss poor choices and should be called on them. It sounds like the shop is supporting him. That means it will happen again. You should notify PADI of your experience if just for documentation.

 

[Diver0001]

I dunno. I looked up his cert and he's a MSDT. He shouldn't have lost it.

On the rare occasions when I have lost track of a student during a dive my first two questions upon finding them have always been the same:

- are you ok?
- what happened?

In that order.

Any other initial response from an instructor is beyond comprehension to me.

And even *IF* a student makes a blooper, which does not appear to be the case here, you have a reponsibility to them and to yourself as an instructor to treat the blooper as a learning/teaching moment..... and keep in mind that with a buddy separation it's as much the instructor's learning moment as the student's!

A couple of good follow-up questions for a student who has made a blooper are:

- What do you think of the way you responded?
- If you had to do that again, how would you respond?
- How do you think this could have been avoided?

and more directively,

- Did you think about doing XYZ? Why/why-not?
- What if I told you that XYZ is the best response.... How could you see the problem developing in time to do that?

and then finally totally directively

- here is what I would have done.... (XYZ)
- next time I would like you to do XYZ.... (explain)
- what you did isn't the best solution because XYZ is better.... (explain)

These are things that the vast majority of scuba instructors would have said/done. Breaking someone's balls, even if it *was* a blooper, doesn't help you achieve the result you want, namely a competent and safe diver. Hotpuppy still doesn't know what he did (I assume) that made his instructor think he was an f'n idiot. Maybe his instructor had some valuable thought in mind, but his inability to bring it has resulted in (a) no change (b) a student who is upset and still doesn't understand what his instructor wanted and (c) making himself look like an f'n idiot.

R..

 

[Diver0001]

Unacceptable. The whole set up was unacceptable. If you are on a training dive, your instructor has no business double dipping different classes. It is unsafe and unprofessional.

As I said above, some combinations work fine and others don't. Combining an OW class with a deep specialty is just bizarre but if the *profiles* are compatible then it's perfectly feasible to have a mixed class with students diving the same profile but just doing different skills along the way.

The dive profile is the main thing. In this case the instructor had some students who *can't* go deeper than 18m and some students who *must* go deeper than 18m. That's not going to work no matter how creatively you look at it.

R..

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

As I said above, some combinations work fine and others don't. Combining an OW class with a deep specialty is just bizarre but if the *profiles* are compatible then it's perfectly feasible to have a mixed class with students diving the same profile but just doing different skills along the way.

The dive profile is the main thing. In this case the instructor had some students who *can't* go deeper than 18m and some students who *must* go deeper than 18m. That's not going to work no matter how creatively you look at it.

R..

I agree. This sounds bizarre and completely unacceptable. Do I combine certain specialties? Yes, at times, I have, but I prefer not to. In this case, it was ridiculous to the point of doubtful. And if they were in their OW 1 and 2, they could not dive night conditions, which is what he described. It was all stupid. And I have long said that just because it is feasible or allowed, does not mean it is the best way to do things. This guy got all areas wrong.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

On the rare occasions when I have lost track of a student during a dive my first two questions upon finding them have always been the same:

- are you ok?
- what happened?

In that order.

Any other initial response from an instructor is beyond comprehension to me.

And even *IF* a student makes a blooper, which does not appear to be the case here, you have a reponsibility to them and to yourself as an instructor to treat the blooper as a learning/teaching moment..... and keep in mind that with a buddy separation it's as much the instructor's learning moment as the student's!

A couple of good follow-up questions for a student who has made a blooper are:

- What do you think of the way you responded?
- If you had to do that again, how would you respond?
- How do you think this could have been avoided?

and more directively,

- Did you think about doing XYZ? Why/why-not?
- What if I told you that XYZ is the best response.... How could you see the problem developing in time to do that?

and then finally totally directively

- here is what I would have done.... (XYZ)
- next time I would like you to do XYZ.... (explain)
- what you did isn't the best solution because XYZ is better.... (explain)

These are things that the vast majority of scuba instructors would have said/done. Breaking someone's balls, even if it *was* a blooper, doesn't help you achieve the result you want, namely a competent and safe diver. Hotpuppy still doesn't know what he did (I assume) that made his instructor think he was an f'n idiot. Maybe his instructor had some valuable thought in mind, but his inability to bring it has resulted in (a) no change (b) a student who is upset and still doesn't understand what his instructor wanted and (c) making himself look like an f'n idiot.

R..

Excellent. Exactly what should have happened.

 

[Diver0001]

This guy got all areas wrong.

That's what it looks like but we're hearing one side of the story.

I like your way of thinking though. One task, one focus, one goal.... I always thought you were a woman but you think like a man....LOL You'd fit just fine in my little diving circle

My usual buddy is like that... If we go in the water and decide ahead of time that we're going to find an octopus then we will find an octopus. He's like a bloodhound. Single minded and task focused. If we don't find the octopus then it means that there aren't any!

The rescue I described above was largely his doing too. He saw the buddy hit the surface and raise the alarm while I was briefing my OW students. You could almost audibly hear his tail go "tuuuWWANNNNG!" and he smelled a problem. He said, "Rob" with a tone of voice that I stopped talking mid sentence and turned to see what he wanted. I had two CA's with me that day, and they were in the water before I could say "fetch!" LOL. I said, "go see" (SPLASH) "what her problem is".

The fact that the least experienced of us had about 800 dives helped too, I'm sure.

R..