What to do when an instructor is out of line?

[Wookie]

What scares me about the entire situation is that everyone thought it was OK to continue diving with gear malfunctions, outside of the accepted plan, with a diver who was uncomfortable with the site (although that's the least of my concerns). Diving accidents rarely (so rarely as to be never, but never say never) happen because one thing goes wrong. We show up at WIndy Point where we're uncomfortable anyway. Then, our light fails. We're paired with an instabuddy, which is OK because you're both under instruction. Now, I see a reasonable person saying that they are AOW, Drysuit, DPV, and all of the other cards you have on your list, I can make this dive without an instructor. However, you were under instruction and have a reasonable expectation of being taught something. You also have a reasonable expectation of if you screw up, your instructor will stop you from killing yourselves.

I see the instructor allowing you to dive without equipment that you may need on that particular dive, because it failed on the dive before. I see an instructor losing his cool because you didn't meet his expectations. I see you justifying not following the instructors instruction for whatever reason. I think that there is plenty of room for everyone to improve and learn something here.

First, I've seen customers sit out entire liveaboard trips because they have a piece of equipment fail. Specifically, the t-piece on a rebreather cracked during shipping, and made the loop fail the negative pressure test. Maybe not in the same category as a flooded light at lake Travis, but if you briefed the dive with primary and backup lights as part of the required equipment, better make sure you have a primary and backup light. Your instructor was out of line to curse at you. Period. It was uncalled for, and if the shop owner doesn't chastise the instructor to your satisfaction, I guess you know how that shop feels about your continued patronage. Additionally, if your instructor tells you to hold onto a rope, hold the damn rope. It may be how he is counting heads (hands). It may be practice for deco procedures later on in your diving career, it may be something you don't know about (although a good instructor would explain to you why you are doing things). If you don't want to hold the rope, tell your instructor during the briefing. Give him an opportunity to explain to you why to do a particular task. Ignoring your briefing during the dive is a sure-fire way to rile up your instructor, or your dive buddy. I can't tell you how many dives I've been on with buddies with full briefings, exactly how we were going to accomplish something, then as soon as we hit the water, the plan somehow has changed and no one told me about the change.

As I say, I think that there is room here for everyone to learn something new.

 

[Hotpuppy]

Now, I see a reasonable person saying that they are AOW, Drysuit, DPV, and all of the other cards you have on your list, I can make this dive without an instructor. However, you were under instruction and have a reasonable expectation of being taught something. You also have a reasonable expectation of if you screw up, your instructor will stop you from killing yourselves.

I see the instructor allowing you to dive without equipment that you may need on that particular dive, because it failed on the dive before. I see an instructor losing his cool because you didn't meet his expectations. I see you justifying not following the instructors instruction for whatever reason. I think that there is plenty of room for everyone to improve and learn something here.
... If you don't want to hold the rope, tell your instructor during the briefing. Give him an opportunity to explain to you why to do a particular task. Ignoring your briefing during the dive is a sure-fire way to rile up your instructor, or your dive buddy. I can't tell you how many dives I've been on with buddies with full briefings, exactly how we were going to accomplish something, then as soon as we hit the water, the plan somehow has changed and no one told me about the change.

As I say, I think that there is room here for everyone to learn something new.

I try very hard to show up to the site properly equipped. In this case I wasn't given any specific instructions. Had the instructor said Bring X,Y, and Z I would have. I just happened to have my light in my bag and my spare lives in my BCD pocket.

As for the rope. I did what I was comfortable with for as long as it made sense to do it. I hear you saying "do what you are told." I'm fine with that and expect that I'd also be told to remove myself from a situation where I thought I was going to get kicked or tangled up with another diver who was having buoyancy issues. I also think I would be told that if my fin became entangled with 1/2" line that I should let go and address that.

My expectation would be that if you were the instructor and you had an issue with me not holding on to the rope that we would discuss it. You'd tell me why it was important and I would acknowledge that and explain what was going on. We could then discuss a way to meet the directive while addressing my concern. I find it hard to believe that a good instructor would say, no go ahead and cozy up to Bob while he flails to maintain position.

These things didn't happen. So I was left to conclude that the instructor didn't have any issues with me dropping down to a better position on the rope and then clearing away when I got tangled on my fin.

I see your point about deco. I have a great respect for technical divers. At this point I have no interest in tech diving or cave diving. When my interest changes I will take the appropriate training and pay more attention to practicing for deco.

Until then I'm working on recreational no-decompression diving well within no stop limits and erring on the side of caution. As you pointed out this was a training environment and I was there to learn. Most of what I learned this weekend wasn't on the training agenda.

- I learned that the shallow parts of Travis were actually interesting.
- There are many places to lose a mask and more a snorkel can vanish to.
- If you don't like the plan, speak up and don't give the instructor a pass just because he's the instructor.
- If you feel like something's missing (separation plan) speak up.
- If the dive is being made in a way that challenges safety (missing backup equipment, reverse profile) speak up or refuse the dive even if this may frustrate an instructor who is rushing through it.
- Take a more active role in planning dives and don't trust the instructor to layout all the requirements.
- PADI QA can only be initiated by a direct witness.

 

[ReefHound]

I won't critique the dive other than to say your fins should never be near the rope for the stop. You should be horizontal in the water column, lightly looping a finger or two around the rope, your fins behind you a good 5 feet away from the rope.

I'll say that as a working DM you have to learn how to deal with your own issues second nature while maintaining primary focus on the issues of others. New divers are going to kick the crap out of you. You learn how to block and shield automatically. New divers are going to run into you and descend on top of you. You learn how to sidestep and maneuver out of the way. Don't expect any credit though because they won't even be aware of what you did. They will have all kinds of equipment issues. You can't have any, in fact you will need to carry extra clips and weights to solve theirs.

 

[Wookie]

Most of what I learned this weekend wasn't on the training agenda.

- I learned that the shallow parts of Travis were actually interesting.
- There are many places to lose a mask and more a snorkel can vanish to.
- If you don't like the plan, speak up and don't give the instructor a pass just because he's the instructor.
- If you feel like something's missing (separation plan) speak up.
- If the dive is being made in a way that challenges safety (missing backup equipment, reverse profile) speak up or refuse the dive even if this may frustrate an instructor who is rushing through it.
- Take a more active role in planning dives and don't trust the instructor to layout all the requirements.
- PADI QA can only be initiated by a direct witness.

Then you've left with a great education.

 

[Wookie]

Most of what I learned this weekend wasn't on the training agenda.

- I learned that the shallow parts of Travis were actually interesting.
- There are many places to lose a mask and more a snorkel can vanish to.
- If you don't like the plan, speak up and don't give the instructor a pass just because he's the instructor.
- If you feel like something's missing (separation plan) speak up.
- If the dive is being made in a way that challenges safety (missing backup equipment, reverse profile) speak up or refuse the dive even if this may frustrate an instructor who is rushing through it.
- Take a more active role in planning dives and don't trust the instructor to layout all the requirements.
- PADI QA can only be initiated by a direct witness.

Then you've left with a great education. By the way, I think you acted appropriately for a buddy separation. I'm just trying to understand why your instructor turned all inside out.

 

[Hotpuppy]

I won't critique the dive other than to say your fins should never be near the rope for the stop. You should be horizontal in the water column, lightly looping a finger or two around the rope, your fins behind you a good 5 feet away from the rope.

I'll say that as a working DM you have to learn how to deal with your own issues second nature while maintaining primary focus on the issues of others. New divers are going to kick the crap out of you. You learn how to block and shield automatically. New divers are going to run into you and descend on top of you. You learn how to sidestep and maneuver out of the way. Don't expect any credit though because they won't even be aware of what you did. They will have all kinds of equipment issues. You can't have any, in fact you will need to carry extra clips and weights to solve theirs.

You are dead on... on all points. We were told explicitly to use a vertical ascent not horizontal. I did not agree with this, but did follow the plan. I figured that there must be something I didn't know and that it wasn't the time to stop and ask why. I was capable of meeting the requirement or trying. My philosophy there is to do as asked and then later on I can ask about it.

My personal preference is not to be on top of other divers. If you and I are diving, we shouldn't be so close that we would fit in a 32" shower. 4 of us sure as hell shouldn't be in a 5 foot hoop while ascending with a regular surface float that is loosely tied off in Travis' typical 1 to 2 foot chop.

I'm getting used to the idea of carrying enough extra gear (at my own expense) to salvage other people's dives. I loaned out 12 pounds of lead to an AOW student who forgot his because nobody else had that much extra. An OW student was very short on lead and wearing alot of neoprene which is where the instructor's extra weights went. He thanked me and I replied, "Hey no big deal, I'm glad to see them get wet." He asked why I had so much and I explained that I had my dry cert and I keep all my weight in my weight bag. He then commented on how nice the weight bag was and I explained that they were awesome and only about $25 at the shop. He also is the diver who lost his mask when we got in the water, and who had issues with putting a fin on. I told him to relax, helped him get his fin on, went down 7 feet to find the mask and told him not to worry about it. I enjoy helping other divers. They appreciate it and it makes me feel good. It was just the 2 AOW divers and the 2 AOW students at the ladder to the water, so I wasn't sharpshooting. When my buddy lost her snorkle the OW instructor was present and I checked with him if it was okay to try and find it.

Being kicked and what not will take some getting used to. Although I did plenty of aqua-wrestling above and below water with Rescue. The DM's and DMC tried their damnest to dunk us and rip our gear off.

I do appreciate the advice.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I won't critique the dive other than to say your fins should never be near the rope for the stop. You should be horizontal in the water column, lightly looping a finger or two around the rope, your fins behind you a good 5 feet away from the rope.

Well I'm hear to learn, so please teach me why the underlined statement above is made to seem like the only way a SS should be done?

 

[F106A]

Besides some obvious other issues, sounds like that instructor can't handle stress or problems very well. I'd hate to have him forced on me as an insta-buddy, even in Key Largo.

 

[Hotpuppy]

Then you've left with a great education. By the way, I think you acted appropriately for a buddy separation. I'm just trying to understand why your instructor turned all inside out.

I dunno. I looked up his cert and he's a MSDT. He shouldn't have lost it.

I took EFR from this instructor and I asked *alot* of questions in that course which might have ruffled his feathers. I felt like he rushed through that course. We scheduled two nights and finished it in 1. My last CPR cert had been when I was in the Military in the early 90's. Some stuff has changed and I asked alot of questions about the changes. I'm pretty detail and process oriented. My professional life rewards it and ignoring details is expensive. My other expensive hobby is sailing and that is another activity that rewards attention to detail and punishes bad planning.

I ask alot of questions. I might have asked him a question that irritated him without realizing it. One of the things that was difficult for me yesterday was tuning in and out to the parts of the briefing that applied to me. He was briefing the AOW and Deep students at the same time. So he did the 5 minutes that pertained to Deep and then briefed AOW for 10 minutes. When he was reading the Knowledge Reviews (and the answers to them) I got up and walked away when he got to Advanced. I checked it with him that we were done with Deep.... but he might have been annoyed. I just don't see a good reason to sit there while he does something I'm already certified in. Not from an arrogance, but my experience is that people are less likely to ask questions when there is a bigger audience. None of the students had their KR's (myself included). Rather than letting the students stumble through the KR's he simply read them. I had the first section, but that came from the Adventures in Diving book. Signing up for the class was a last minute thing and when I signed up I learned their was a book... that the shop was out of. I asked the instructor (who was in the shop then) how he wanted to handle that and he said, "just do them after the class and email them to me." Had he said "you need them before class." I would have delayed scheduling the class.

 

[ReefHound]

Well I'm hear to learn, so please teach me why the underlined statement above is made to seem like the only way a SS should be done?

No, let's not get into an infamous SB debate on technique here, point was to find a way so a gaggle of divers aren't kicking each other and entangling fins in the line. You can do your stop upside down if you want...