What length hoses do you have?

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper
If I had it to do over again, I would skip the "PADI" stuff (snipping out gratuitous PADI slam ) and get right into GUE. I believe Tech 1 only requires 75 dives, and you'll actually learn very relavent stuff.

Yeah... but....
Take DIRF first....
Trust me on this one...

BTW gotta agree with the Yoopster on the 7 footer...

Again

 

[Lost Yooper]

Yeah, if you don't know anything about DIR, take the DIRF class first.

Mike

 

[large_diver]

Jim -- some more about hose lengths.

I am about your size (6'5"). I use a 7 foot hose and find it comfortable. The need for 5' vs. 7' depends on the routing. If the hose is routed down the side of your body, you need a 7'. I still use a jacket BC (heresy!) -- I run the hose down the right side of my body from the first stage. It stays put nicely under the bottom right front side of my BC (vs. looping under a canister light). From there I route it across my chest and behind my head.

With a 5 footer, you would run it more directly under your arm from the 1st stage and then across your chest and behind your head.

 

[martinjc]

Thanks gang! I knew I had read on that site before that you had to have a minimum # of dives (25) which I do not have yet. Also - no dry suit in the budget this year! Maybe next year....right now I just need more experience diving. I think I'll hold of on any configuration changes for now...as I just re-read the course equipment requirements - would a Dive Rite TRanspac II qualify for the following BC requirement -

5. Buoyancy control unit. Back mounted wings type BC mated with a harness and back plate. Single tank system must incorporate back mounted flotation and a back plate/harness assembly.

I'm thinking it wouldn't - and I just bought the thing last year! <S>

 

[Lost Yooper]

I don't know if GUE allows those type of BC's or not. I'd ditch it while it still has some value and go with a BP/harness and Halcyon wing combo.

Been there -- done that in similar fashion.

Mike

 

[cybordolphin]

Lost Yooper...

"With diving comes some risk, and you have to accept that. If you're looking for guarenteed safe, you're in the wrong sport."

That is not where I was coming from. Really, I understand the risk and accept it.

Its just that I am being taught to NOT share my primary. Only to give my backup to my buddy. The buddy I end up with... may not be well trained, or handle his panic in an OOA situation.

I am also being taught that if I have an OOA situation, and my buddy is too far away (better not be), or has no backup (or his backup is not working).... I am to "RRR" (regain control, respond, react). And the only reaction I am being taught is to drop weight and surface exhaling.

Only expecting my buddy to give up his backup to me.

I am being taught that statistically sharing a single regulator ends more times than not... in disaster (for both divers).

Granted I am sure that there have been numerous times that sharing a single reg with a TRAINED buddy, has turned out with great success. But if BOTH are not well trained in sharing... you could likely have a real problem (based on statistics).

If I am diving with a very well trained buddy..... then I would be comfortable sharing. But what about the luck of the draw on the dive boat situation?

I was only saying that this practice of giving up a primary to your buddy, was different than what I was being taught.... and that I would have to get comfortable with the idea (change).

Logically it just struck me as wrong... to have the person carrying the air give up his KNOWN TO BE WORKING primary. And again in the unlikely event the backup second should fail... the guy with the air on his back would have a very difficult time surfacing if he could not get his primary back to share the air (ended up with an untrained dive buddy that is panicked and unwilling to share the primary I just gave him).

I have lots to learn. And really appreciate all the input.

Now.... about those hose lengths..

I think I will start with shorter than a 7' for my primary, until I make the step to DIR diving, only because it seems like it would/could be cumbersome to stow that much length. At least for now.

How does the following sound for a newbie:

Primary second stage: 26"
Backup second stage: 28"
Low pressure to BC: 24"
To gauges: 24"

??

 

[daisho]

I like the idea of the OOA Diver taking the reg I'm breathing. He/She is in a panic and I (in theory) am not. I can grab my bungied reg and I know the OOA diver got some air.

BTW I run a 7' on my primary and the standard ScubaPro for my backup.

 

[roakey]

For those of you that fear giving up the regulator in your mouth, I can't say it better some of the best in the field, so here's what Jarrod Jabolnski has to say about it (this is a very old post, so the overhead environment references have been dropped from his current philosophy):

“The following discussion reviews the most common resistance to donating the long hose from the mouth.

'The last thing I want to do in an out of air situation is give up my primary regulator.' - This does not really seem to be a rational fear. It is likely that a diver incapable of removing the regulator from his or her mouth for five to ten seconds is not skilled or practiced enough to be in an overhead environment. One may question this divers ability to handle an out of air situation in which the out of air diver chooses the regulator in their mouth. A diver with this degree of concern over the regulator in their mouth may find it quite a challenge to even deal with the very real possibility of an accidentally dislodged regulator. By donating the long hose regulator from the mouth in an out of air situation one guarantees that the person most in need of a clean fully functioning regulator is going to get it. If you pass any other regulator to an out of air diver it is quite possible that the regulator received may contain contaminants that will be impossible for the stressed diver to manage. In essence, what you will have done is to place the last straw on the camel's back, creating the last problem your dive buddy can manage. The advantage of donating your long hose primary is that you are always ready for this very real possibility. You are, in essence, always prepared for any eventuality rather than maintaining a fixed picture of how things should operate. Emergencies have an annoying habit of not going as planned and the Hogarthian diver is more prepared to manage a variety of out of air scenarios. “

You can find the full test of the above at: http://www.sfdj.com/hogarthian/hog2.html

Dan Volker ges on to say:

"A real 'fear' exists in handling OOA emergencies. A better way exists to assist another diver, one that is not yet implemented by most training agencies. This is the concept of the 'Long Hose'. It should be your primary regulator, and it wraps once around your neck----it allows a rapid straight up and out deployment to an Out of Air Diver. At 4 to 7 feet long for open water use, it provides you with a good safety margin for reaching the other diver if they are in a small confined space, and once in the open, your control and swimming are not hampered by constantly bumping in to the other diver who is pulled to close by a short hose. You instantly switch to a short hose which hangs right under your chin, held by surgical tubing. In the buddy breathing scenario, the diver who is OOA, may typically be in great panic, unable to breath for much longer than they can stay calm---as tunnel vision closes in on them, you DO NOT want to chance fate by handing them a secondary that may not be working, or that is not purged, or that may take you an extra 4 seconds to deploy, and hand to them----this type of delay will have them reaching for the regulator in your mouth anyway. The long hose will place a reg in their mouth immediately, and they have room to become comfortable----they don't feel the hose may rip the regulator out of their mouth at any moment, by a sudden body motion that tightens up the short hose too much. And they will feel comfortably supported by a functional breathing system. They will be far more likely to calm down, and assist in the swim to the surface."

Full text (with good pictures) can be found at: http://www.sfdj.com/fall/beyond2.html

Bottom line: In the most common OOA scenarios you’re going to lose your primary, so if your normal OOA procedure is designed around a panic scenario, it’ll be a non-issue when dealing with a panicked diver, and even easier if the diver is not panicking.

Donating from your mouth gives you the highest probability of success for both divers. Any argument to the contrary is based on either fear or unlikely double-failure scenarios (OOA AND a failing backup that worked perfectly at the start of the dive) concocted to support an otherwise indefensible position.

Roak

 

[roakey]

Originally posted by cybordolphin
Its just that I am being taught to NOT share my primary. Only to give my backup to my buddy. The buddy I end up with... may not be well trained, or handle his panic in an OOA situation.

And if the diver does not handle his panic well as you say, is he going to go for a regulator that's hanging by your side, perhaps hidden in a pocket or the working one that he sees YOU getting air from? Easy, you’re going to lose the reg in your mouth.

Once he takes it, now you're in a situation that you haven't trained for. Either that or you're going to fight him to keep your primary, in which case you lose even more precious time and he drowns. Maybe you both drown.

All the above outcomes suck, but such is the state of mainstream training nowadays.

The mainstream training agencies suffer from what I call “litigation paralysis.” If they change to something better, they’re admitting that what they used to do was worse, and they open themselves up to being sued from the surviving family members of folks that died because of the “old” way of doing things. So if they’ve taught that it’s OK to drink arsenic since the dawn of time, they’ll keep teaching that it’s OK to drink arsenic because they don’t want to admit what they’ve taught in the past is wrong.

Roak

 

[cybordolphin]

Thanks Roakey...

I read that off the same page you did.

For whatever reasons.... NASDS teaches to NOT give up your primary.

Statistics DO show that in OOA emergencies where the primary was shared..... more often both divers did not survive.

I don't have a fear of giving up my regulator .... as long as I am certain the one I am giving it to.... will be giving it back if need be.

If I am with a buddy I KNOW has trained (a lot) to share..... I would be comfortable with that.

Now... the issue of having something wrapped around my throat while diving..... lol.

Ok.... enough devils advocate. I'm tappin the mat on this one.

I WILL look into other training methods down the road.... for now I just need to try and figure out what would be some ideal hose lengths for a new diver.

Thanks again.