What length hoses do you have?

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by cybordolphin

For whatever reasons.... NASDS teaches to NOT give up your primary.

Statistics DO show that in OOA emergencies where the primary was shared..... more often both divers did not survive.

Now... the issue of having something wrapped around my throat while diving..... lol.

Amazing...
(1) NASDS (now SSI) does (and did) teach giving up your primary.
(2) I don't believe you'll be able to find the "statistics" you cite. I certainly can't.
(3) "Something wrapped around your throat" What's the problem? A bungee necklace with a breakaway attachment to the regulator just isn't a hazard. see http://homepages.msn.com/SupportSt/rickmurchison/necklace.html
Rick (NASDS OWI 3741 SSI DCSI 3720)

 

[Tavi]

Hi all,
I use a Sea-cure mouthpeice. Works great for me!

Would having this mouthpeice on the reg that is being donated/taken cause a problem?

My thoughts are. It Would probably feel real strange to someone else(it's molded to fit my mouth). But they may be so glad to get air that they don't notice? or it could add to their panic?

any opinions or experience???

 

[Blargh]

Originally posted by cybordolphin
Thanks Roakey...

<snip>

Statistics DO show that in OOA emergencies where the primary was shared..... more often both divers did not survive.

<snip>

Thanks again.

For what its worth...

You are NOT sharing anything. You give one reg and switch to another.

Please do not confuse out-of-mouth donation with reg sharing/buddy breathing. The two have nothing to do with each other.

 

[cybordolphin]

Rick...

I swear I am not making this up.

Here is the information straight out of the NASDS manual.

PLEASE be sure to read all the below.

****************************************************

"The Out-of-Air Emergency and The Decision Matrix"

"REGAIN CONTROL... The primal response to finding yourself out-of-air at depth is shock, and an adrenalin rush caused by the "fight or flight" response. This is where your training takes over. You realize immediately that an uncontrolled, panicked ascent would have grave consequences. You regain control - your capacity to think - and fight the primal response."

"RESPOND... you have regained your capacity to think. You know you are out of air. You have two choices - dependent action taken with your buddy, or independent action taken by yourself.

Your first choice should be dependent action. If proper diving procedure has been followed, your buddy should be within arm's length. If your buddy has a safe second stage, give the out-of-air signal and share air using your buddy's safe second stage.

If the distance is too great, or if your buddy does not have a safe second stage, you should take independent action or a controlled out-of-air ascent."

"Here are your choices:"


"Out-of-Air

(ALL OF THE BELOW ARE EXACTLY QUOTED FROM MANUAL)

1) Buddy with safe sedond is close enough-
share air using safe second stage or

2) Buddy has no safe second and/or is not close enough-
perform controlled out-of-air ascent.

If your buddy is close enough but does not have a safe second stage, you may wonder why you wouldn't share air by passing your buddy's primary second stage back and forth.
Consider the reality of the situation - a stressed out, out-of-air diver, 80 feet below the surface may not be too dependable
when it comes to passing the primary second stage back to you.

Sharing air by passing the assisting buddy's primary second stage back and forth requires considerable skill, practice, and discipline. Most basic diving courses provide training in sharing air under highly controlled situations that lead to a false sense of confidence. Very few basic diving courses provide training in sharing air under true stressful conditions. This results in students with no understanding of their real responses in an emergency. Sharing air in that manner has often ended tragically in double drownings in which BOTH members of the buddy team were lost."

"REACT..... choose either dependent or independent action and act decisively. Trust your training and judgement and ACT. It should take only seconds to REGAIN CONTROL, RESPOND, and REACT."

*************************************************

There is additional information regarding NOT sharing your primary. But I will only post if someone would find it interesting.
You may find it of interest to see how NASDS teaches
"Independent Action - Controlled Out-of-Air Ascent Procedure."

I only wanted to quote the above so that you don't think I am a complete idiot just making this stuff up. Hey... I am new to the sport, and just am quoting what I am learning. Actually it made complete sense to me.

Please don't think that this is my idea. That's important to me.
I intend on being a very safe dive buddy. I will also make sure that the buddies I dive with share the same training. I think that is obviously going to be extremely important to finding a safe buddy. Whether or not it is DIR, or otherwise.

I REALLY do appreciate all the input on this topic. I have read the DIR training ideas, and I once again am not disagreeing with their training... but rather find it in conflict with my current training in just a few areas. Unfortunately..... the differences could create dive problems from what I can tell. Not happy about that. But I am interested in learning more about the DIR methods (I have visited a few sites showing details).

Blargh... we understand giving up the primary is not the same as sharing. Sharing would only come into place if there was a problem/failure with your safe second/backup or your buddy had no safe second. NASDS just does not want you to do EITHER. They do give light training on the proceedure though. We are not confused with that issue.

 

[Bob3]

DUI

You mean "Diving Under the Influence? HEY no fair editing typos!!!
Hey, I prefer my primary to be 150 feet long, though I have on occasion used a 3000 footer.
Regarding the breakaway necklace; It's suprising how many "experts" still use the bungee under the mouthpiece zip tie trick.
Good way to have a mouthpiece stripped off. It's hard on the teeth using a reg w/no mouthpiece.:gator:

 

[cybordolphin]

Lmao.... got me.

 

[Lost Yooper]

Originally posted by cybordolphin
Lost Yooper...

"With diving comes some risk, and you have to accept that. If you're looking for guarenteed safe, you're in the wrong sport."

That is not where I was coming from. Really, I understand the risk and accept it.

Its just that I am being taught to NOT share my primary. Only to give my backup to my buddy. The buddy I end up with... may not be well trained, or handle his panic in an OOA situation.

I am also being taught that if I have an OOA situation, and my buddy is too far away (better not be), or has no backup (or his backup is not working).... I am to "RRR" (regain control, respond, react). And the only reaction I am being taught is to drop weight and surface exhaling.

Only expecting my buddy to give up his backup to me.

I am being taught that statistically sharing a single regulator ends more times than not... in disaster (for both divers).

Granted I am sure that there have been numerous times that sharing a single reg with a TRAINED buddy, has turned out with great success. But if BOTH are not well trained in sharing... you could likely have a real problem (based on statistics).

If I am diving with a very well trained buddy..... then I would be comfortable sharing. But what about the luck of the draw on the dive boat situation?

I was only saying that this practice of giving up a primary to your buddy, was different than what I was being taught.... and that I would have to get comfortable with the idea (change).

Logically it just struck me as wrong... to have the person carrying the air give up his KNOWN TO BE WORKING primary. And again in the unlikely event the backup second should fail... the guy with the air on his back would have a very difficult time surfacing if he could not get his primary back to share the air (ended up with an untrained dive buddy that is panicked and unwilling to share the primary I just gave him).

I have lots to learn. And really appreciate all the input.

Now.... about those hose lengths..

I think I will start with shorter than a 7' for my primary, until I make the step to DIR diving, only because it seems like it would/could be cumbersome to stow that much length. At least for now.

How does the following sound for a newbie:

Primary second stage: 26"
Backup second stage: 28"
Low pressure to BC: 24"
To gauges: 24"

??

To be honest with you, I don't know if a long hose works well with a regular jacket style BC (which I assume you have). It's been too long since I've used one. I suspect a 5' hose would work well for a primary. I've seen and heard of people with jackets using them without much problem. The other hose lengths you have there seem fine, I guess.

As for your training, if you follow DIR, you'll figure out that you'll have a lot of bad habits that will need to be broken. The recreational community has learned a bunch from the tech community -- especially cavers. My advice is to skip the recreational rhetoric and start learning from those who know the most .

Mike

 

[Rick Murchison]

For cybordolphin:
Yes, yes, you've found it... did you also note that this whole scenario is presented as an "example"? And that this edition ('95 or earlier I believe) said rig the safe second over the left shoulder? Are you doing that? (I don't have a problem with this rig - it works fine and was an early attempt at providing the extra freedom of movement for the OOA diver that the long hose really does provide) If you're rigging over the left shoulder then you'll have a little extra twisting of the first stage to do should the "hairy hand" snatch your first stage away from you.
Even under this book we (my shop) taught handing off the primary first, then after things had settled down switch the OOA diver to the secondary if desired. (We also rigged the second under the right arm vice over the left shoulder and NASDS was fine with that).
There is also a statement in that book that's misleading that says buddy breathing "has often ended tragically in double drownings"... "often" in this case is probably half a dozen in a decade. After all, very few of all the successful buddy-breathing ascents were ever reported... In the pre-SPG days buddy breathing ascents were not infrequent. What the author is trying to do is emphasize the preference for the CESA (independent action) over buddy breathing as a planned course of action - which is also a good way to do things, I think.
Bottom line - If you'll *plan* to have your primary taken or handed off as the normal way of things you'll never have a nasty surprise. If you want to breathe the shorter hose as primary you can always switch the OOA diver to the secondary after he's settled down.
What do I do? I always breathe the longer hose, whether it be a standard hose when my second is integrated with the inflator, or a 7' hose when I have my "Octopus" on a necklace - either way, if you need my air I expect you to take it from my mouth, or for me to hand you the one that I'm breathing if I see you coming.
Rick
PS - NASDS merged into SSI two years ago. SSI teaches donation of the primary first.

 

[cybordolphin]

Oh perfect....

My class is SSI. The manual is fourth printing 2000. Not out of date by any means. And it does go on to discuss not sharing a single reg., OR giving away your primary. One of the question answer quizzes also specifically states.

Question:
"12) According to NASDS emergency proceedures, you should share air:

Answer: b) ONLY if you have a safe second stage."
(they are meaning a backup/"safe")

They list the INCORRECT answers:
a) even if you only have one second stage.
c) BY GIVING YOUR BUDDY YOUR PRIMARY SECOND STAGE.
d) only during an ascent.

You can see that by listing c) as the incorrect answer.... they are clearly teaching NOT (according to NASDS emergency proceedures) to give your buddy your primary second stage.

They absolutely are also against sharing. They have several quiz(s) regarding that as well.


*************************************************


I think I will take Mike's advice.... and keep an open mind and try not to pick up any bad habits along the way.

Too bad there is more than one way of doing things sometimes.
Especially when your lives (I am sure I have more than one)could depend on it being done correctly.

I am learning lots.. and that is good.

Thanks guys.

 

[Lost Yooper]

One more thing.

Keep in mind that most people won't go after your bungied necklace backup reg. They'll go after the reg in your mouth. The whole break away bungie thing doesn't bother me much -- mostly because I dive with people who share the same philosophy and know what to do.
If you're diving with someone who may not know what to do, then you should be on an elevated sense of awareness and not allow such an episode to occur in the first place (shouldn't occur anyway, period). A break away necklaced backup reg has the potential to allow the backup to come off unknowingly. Obviously, this could be really bad in more ways than one and is why most DIRers use the zip tie to keep the bungie on.

If someone touches your backup, punch them in the mouth, bite their fingers and shove the primary in their face!

Later.

Mike