What I want, and I bet I'm not the only one
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By the time anyone would want to replace it, it will be out of warranty, so that shouldn't be a concern for the company. Also, I traded messages with Randy and was told that even if you send it to them to replace the battery (after it's out of warranty), if they change the battery and return it and it floods on the very next dive (say, because they messed up on reassembly) there would be no warranty coverage for that.
So, you're advocating for divers who can handle it servicing their own regs (and being supported in that by the company that makes the reg), but not for divers being able to replace the battery in their computer?
Spot on with what? Apple, HTC, and Motorola phones generally do not allow the user to replace the battery. Samsung (prior to the S6) and LG phones do. And they are all about the same thickness and they all last about the same amount of time on a charge. So, saying a dive computer can't have that because it would make it too thick is baloney.
I have a Samsung tablet with a similar type of battery. After about 2 years, the charge capacity was reduced to the point where I wanted to put a new battery in. I talked to the Samsung service center and they quoted me $150 for me to send it in and have them replace the battery. The same as what I recall you quoting me for putting a new battery in the H3. I ordered a new battery off eBay for $20 and found a YouTube video that showed me how to take my tablet apart, replace the battery, and put it back together. Done. Tablet still works like a champ.
Being able to do it myself means, potentially, a big cost savings and it also means that if something happens (e.g. company goes out of business, company discontinues the model and stops offering support, company loses their supplier for that particular battery, company raises the price even higher) I am not screwed. Being ABLE to maintain my own equipment is always preferable - even if I CHOOSE to pay someone else to do it.
In your case, if you offered any kind of warranty after replacing the battery, to protect me in the event that your tech had a 1 in a million screw-up on reassembly or the new battery turns out to be a dud or whatever, then that would alleviate SOME of the concern. But, you already told me you don't. In which case, I'd rather have some official support (even if it's just instructions on how to do it using normal tools) so I could do it myself. I will always use more care and attention in working on my own computer than any tech in a service center who's doing 20 of them a day.
All that said, the user replaceable battery is not necessarily a REQUIREMENT (to me). This thread is about what we would LIKE. And I reckon there will continue to be people who say that a reliable user replaceable battery in an H3 form factor is not feasible forever ... right up until somebody makes one.
Because it takes 2 minutes to replace a battery. How long does it take to recharge one?
---------- Post added December 16th, 2015 at 05:37 PM ----------
I'm saying a dive computer can have that and a usable runtime and be thick. Thick doesn't seem to be that much of a problem for all those petrel owners, yourself included. Unless you're specifically asking for thin, like the post that started this tangent asked for AA battery inside H3-sized device.
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no, I'm saying that it is pretty crappy of the dealers to not guarantee their work. If Subgravity isn't going to stand behind the work that they did repairing it, I would 100% avoid sending it to them for service. With Scubapro taking over, the network for service will open up and you should be able to get a better guarantee. That said, if a shop can service it, so you can. User replaceable batteries are a term for "easy replacement" i.e. grab a quarter and pop a new battery in, not having to disassemble it. You can still DIY, but if the shop isn't going to stand behind their work, find another one. You can change the battery in an iPhone, it isn't hard, but you can't just snap off the back and swap it easily. You can't have that with a dive computer, sorry, just isn't feasible in something as small as the H3.
I 100% promise you that you will never see an easy user replaceable battery for the H3. That is a guarantee. You can replace it the same as you did with the tablet battery, but in something that small, it is impossible to have a circular compartment *because it has to screw out to lock* and get a large enough square battery in there. It will add thickness to put that compartment in because you need to add enough threads and a thick enough o-ring to withstand the rotation and pressure, and then you're out of that form factor.
I 100% promise you that you will never see an easy user replaceable battery for the H3. That is a guarantee. You can replace it the same as you did with the tablet battery, but in something that small, it is impossible to have a circular compartment *because it has to screw out to lock* and get a large enough square battery in there. It will add thickness to put that compartment in because you need to add enough threads and a thick enough o-ring to withstand the rotation and pressure, and then you're out of that form factor.
DevonDiver
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Try living / diving in a developing nation, where power outages might be frequent and 'fancy,' batteries aren't sold. Or hotel rooms where the electricity cuts when you're not in the room...
You can get an AA battery anywhere in the world, and the computer is up and running again in 60 seconds...
Going back to the OP, yes, I want the same thing. I am waiting to hear from Subgravity about whether the AI is coming.
+1 I forgot to make that point. I don't want to be screwed because I forgot to charge my dive computer. When I forget to charge my phone, I swap the battery out and keep going.
Actually, I have posted numerous times about how much I dislike the thickness of my Petrel. That is the reason I would still consider getting an H3. The post you're talking about requested a user replaceable battery and then, in parentheses, mentioned AA and AAA. And it requested the H3 form factor. I agree with you that it's not happening with AA batteries. But, yes, I would LIKE a computer the size of the H3 (or even thinner, actually, would be great, thank you) that also lets me replace the battery easily (to tbone's point). How about a circular opening that is as large as physically possible on the back of the H3, and a rectangular battery with the width and height to fit through that opening? With the size of the H3, I think (okay, pure speculation, really) a circular opening on the back would permit a battery with a decent capacity. Did I read that the H3 battery is 900mAh capacity, or am I confusing that info with some other computer?
The Petrel runs for 30 hours on a AA alkaline battery, I think? AA alkalines are spec'ed at 3.90 Wh, according to Wikipedia. A typical cell phone battery that is 3.7V and 3000mAh is 11Wh (I believe). If the H3 only needs around 4 Wh to have its current run time, then a pretty small cell phone (or similar) battery should be enough capacity.
So, why not have a large round battery compartment on the H3 with an easily replaceable battery underneath? If it was that easy to swap out, maybe it wouldn't even be a big deal to have a slightly smaller run time on a full charge (i.e. have a slightly lower battery capacity than it has now, if that was needed in order to make it fit)?
MAYBE even make the battery compartment with contacts like a cell phone has and make them waterproof and shortproof (like the USB contacts on the H3 are now, maybe?)? So, if the user screws up and the battery compartment floods, the battery itself probably dies, but the computer is fine. Dry the battery compartment out, put in a new battery, and go.
---------- Post added December 16th, 2015 at 05:14 PM ----------
My Atom is pretty thin and I can twist the battery cover off to open it and replace the battery, no problem.
Why can't the H3 have a much bigger opening that works the same way, and still be as thin (or very nearly so) as it is now? Why would the opening having a larger diameter mean that the device has to take on any (significant) more thickness than the Atom does? I can see adding a little more thickness because the larger compartment door would flex more easily than the smaller door on the Atom. But, the Atom door is plastic, I think, and the H3 body is 316 Stainless (I think), so the battery compartment door could be 316 as well?
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the coin cell that powers your atom is not powerful enough to drive the H3 for a reasonable amount of time.
Let's math.
Atom uses a CR2430 lithium cell that is 3v and about 300mah. Same cell diameter at twice the thickness is the 2450 that is 600mah. It is rated for 300 dive hours, and is 16mm thick. To use the 2450 it would have to be 18mm thick to compensate for the thicker battery.
H3 is 13mm thick, has a 400mah battery, and only gets 15 hours of dive time on a charge, but recharges in 2 hours. With a 2450, it would have to be thicker, but would get about 20 hours of dive time. If the battery was designed to be user replaceable easily, it would have to be at minimum the same thickness of the Atom to account for the screw mechanism, could actually use a 2450 cell, they make rechargeable ones, but they're only 120mah, which means you'd only get 3-4 hours of dive time on a charge. Not feasible due to having to charge basically between each dive, or every night, or change the battery The battery they use can only get so small, but it is almost the size of the whole case, so the whole form factor has to increase to make it easy to come out, in all three dimensions because you still need threads with an o-ring which are minimum 3-4mm thick, so now you get into the thickness of the atom or thicker, reduce your capacity to 25% of original, and really don't gain anything.
For high power cells, you have to choose between high capacity, or recharge. You can't have both, that's why the 2450 cell goes from 600mah to 120mah when you add the ability to charge. You have to choose, and the route Seabear went makes more sense because the only way to get that light that small is to seal it. Same thing that Light and Motion chose to do with their lights. HW and Shearwater chose to use standard batteries at the cost of size of the unit.
Let's math.
Atom uses a CR2430 lithium cell that is 3v and about 300mah. Same cell diameter at twice the thickness is the 2450 that is 600mah. It is rated for 300 dive hours, and is 16mm thick. To use the 2450 it would have to be 18mm thick to compensate for the thicker battery.
H3 is 13mm thick, has a 400mah battery, and only gets 15 hours of dive time on a charge, but recharges in 2 hours. With a 2450, it would have to be thicker, but would get about 20 hours of dive time. If the battery was designed to be user replaceable easily, it would have to be at minimum the same thickness of the Atom to account for the screw mechanism, could actually use a 2450 cell, they make rechargeable ones, but they're only 120mah, which means you'd only get 3-4 hours of dive time on a charge. Not feasible due to having to charge basically between each dive, or every night, or change the battery The battery they use can only get so small, but it is almost the size of the whole case, so the whole form factor has to increase to make it easy to come out, in all three dimensions because you still need threads with an o-ring which are minimum 3-4mm thick, so now you get into the thickness of the atom or thicker, reduce your capacity to 25% of original, and really don't gain anything.
For high power cells, you have to choose between high capacity, or recharge. You can't have both, that's why the 2450 cell goes from 600mah to 120mah when you add the ability to charge. You have to choose, and the route Seabear went makes more sense because the only way to get that light that small is to seal it. Same thing that Light and Motion chose to do with their lights. HW and Shearwater chose to use standard batteries at the cost of size of the unit.
Yes, lets.
I looked it up and the H3 has a 4.2V, 400mAh battery. That is 1.68Wh. My cell phone battery is 9.88Wh. A rectangular battery that is the same capacity as the current H3's seems like it would be likely to be small enough to fit through a hole on the back of the H3 that is the largest hole one could make within the H3's dimensions, in order to fit a round, screw-off compartment cover.
I guess what I should really be asking is, what are the dimensions of the current H3 battery?
And what are the dimensions of the back of the H3?
My current watch ahs a 46mm diameter face. If the opening you could make on the back of an H3 were that size, then a square battery that is (46 / sqrt(2)=)32mm on side could fit through there.
Is there no feasibility in finding a LiPO or Li-Ion battery that is 32mmx32mm, that is roughly 1.7Wh capacity, and suitably thin?
---------- Post added December 16th, 2015 at 06:38 PM ----------
I guess another way of asking is, is there no feasibility in getting the current battery into a form factor that would fit through the biggest circular hole you could make on the back of the H3? Really?
Battery , shmattery. Just put a small Flux capacitor and tiny cold fusion reactor in there. It'll make power from junk in the water. Your wrist might rot and hand fall off due to the lack of shielding from the radiation, but hey. No more battery arguments!
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