What ever happened to RESPECT

[ShakaZulu]

I saw a program once, where they used science to prove biblical events. Very interesting indeed. There is enough evidence to support both theories. My question is, since God knows the future, he must have known that so many religions would come to mind, with devastating effects. Couldn't they have been more clear. I also understand the bible was the only book to be written, that applies to all time. My school science book is already out of date..........

 

[Green_Manelishi]

yes you do. you believe that you have received the truth
from God, and that everybody else is wrong who does not
belive as you do.

true or false?

Actually Andy, I KNOW I have received the truth. I know he is willing to die (and more sadly) kill, for a lie.
You don't believe in objective truth; I do.

 

[H2Andy]

Actually Andy, I KNOW I have received the truth.

well, then you have something in common with him, which
was the earlier point you denied.

he also knows he has received the truth, which is different from yours.

now... at a minimum, one of you two is wrong
(you BOTH could be wrong, if the absolute truth was
revealed to a third person)

now, significantly enough, you could never PROVE
each other wrong. there simply is no way to do this.

thus, you are left with two choices: you can fight about it or you can agree to disagree.

in the interest of domestic tranquility, most of us agree
to disagree on these issues

 

[Green_Manelishi]

well, then you have something in common with him, which
was the earlier point you denied.

he also knows he has received the truth, which is different from yours.

now... at a minimum, one of you two is wrong
(you BOTH could be wrong, if the absolute truth was
revealed to a third person)

now, significantly enough, you could never PROVE
each other wrong. there simply is no way to do this.

thus, you are left with two choices: you can fight about it or you can agree to disagree.

in the interest of domestic tranquility, most of us agree
to disagree on these issues

But my truth, despite the most brilliant minds in science and "religion", has never been proved wrong. And when he realizes he has believed a lie, he will be most unhappy.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

But my truth, despite the most brilliant minds in science and "religion", has never been proved wrong. And when he realizes he has believed a lie, he will be most unhappy.

Your truth, in reality, has bever been proven right either ... that's why they call it "faith". You can no more prove your core beliefs than you can disprove someone else's.

No, I certainly was not implying that you are a jihadist ... but by holding to an unshakable belief that what you are doing is the Will of God, you are displaying the same motivations in your life as they display in theirs. Of course, how you choose to act on those motivations is a whole different matter.

There is nothing wrong with holding unshakable your beliefs ... but when it leads to intolerance it breeds a contempt for those who do not believe as you do. And that contempt leads to a dehumanization of one toward another. You demonstrate that contempt in your approach toward this very discussion with those who don't think like you do.

You and our good Reverend have, to my concern, missed the forest for the trees. Christ came to this planet to teach us how to live with each other ... not how to judge each other, condemn each other, or kill each other. You focus on the words, but miss the message.

And that, my friend, is where your beliefs fall short.

You cannot prove, objectively or otherwise, the truth of your beliefs. You cannot even prove that God exists.

I believe that He does ... and my core beliefs aren't really that much different than yours. The implementation, however, is worlds apart.

Because I believe that God gave us each free will for a reason. I believe God created diversity for a reason. I believe God sent Christ to walk among us for a reason. And I believe all those reasons are related ... because He wants us to learn how to live, love, and grow together.

That belief, which is mine and which I don't need to foist upon anyone else, is totally incompatible with intolerance. And it's why people like you cannot help but view people like me as a threat to your version of "Truth".

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Kim]

I don't think that anyone here actually understands Jihad or Jihadist. I am not a Moslem - but having as open a mind as I can I try to listen to all points of view. According to Muslim leaders Jihad is actually a personal war that one fights within oneself to conquer the devil (unbelief) within and reach God. They totally condemn twisting the idea to mean fighting an external battle against other people. They are completely anti-terrorist and dismayed at what a small group does in the name of their religion. Haven't we heard this kind of thing before? In other religions?
As a matter of fact - Jesus is also considered a prophet in the Muslim faith - Mohammed is simply the last one - according to their belief or faith.
In the end that is what all religions are - belief or faith. I thought that history had taught us enough by now to allow for different beliefs or faiths in others. Obviously some people haven't learned that lesson and IMO that is what leads to 'lakes of fire' - a true believing radical Christian is different to a true Jihadist - but very, very similar to a Muslim radical.

 

[Snowbear]

Since I cannot moderate this thread, I guess I can participate, eh?

First a reminder - just because someone disagrees with you, says so and presents their viewpoint, doesn't mean they are attacking you as a person. It also does not mean they are cramming their beliefs or non-beliefs down your throat. It's still your God-given right choose what you will believe in

TDP - As someone who chose for many, many years a "belief system" similar to what Andy describes, I feel the need to tell you that all the folks who told me I would burn in hell for not accepting Christ as my savior could never scare me to accept that. I believed that death was a relief from the hell here on earth and that once I die, my body is just a shell to return to the earth. It was someone who taught me and showed me that God is and is about Love that convinced me to choose to accept Him. My Faith is puny at best and some days seems non-existant, but at the core of it, I've learned that no matter what I think or do, as long as I remember that Christ Is, there is hope for my pathetic failure of a soul.

As to evolution, big bang and whatever other theories - I am a scientist (my degree is in Biological Sciences) by training. Life does evolve and in some cases devolve in the context of mutations and adaptations between and within species. From those who say that life was formed from a primordial pool of organic matter, where did that organic matter come from? For those who say the earth and universe(s) compressed into existance from loose atoms imploded or exploded into a bunch of space debris - where did those atoms come from? Maybe Something had to create them?

 

[Hank49]

I share no view with a jihadist. I simply am a true believer in the truth. They are true believers in a lie.

FWIW .. you are not my enemy.

I try to stay out of these arguments but.......man, Green_Manelishi, if your belief brings you piece and happiness, great for you. I'm always searching for inner piece. But when you state that ," I am a believer in the truth. They are believers in a lie", you're insulting their intelligence. All religions preach pretty much the same ideals as far as man living peacfully with man. And if you believe that God created you and them in His image, then who are you to try and change anyones beliefs? Peace.

 

[The Chairman]

You cannot prove, objectively or otherwise, the truth of your beliefs. You cannot even prove that God exists.

So?

Try and prove electricity. You can't see it, but it's power is obvious. You excersize faith everytime you flip a light switch.

I have seen God work, and he is far more faithful than a light switch. I know that a creation can not exist without a creator. If so just put all of the parts you would need to build a watch in a box and just shake it. Do you think that at sometime in an eternity of shaking that we would ever come up with a working watch?

But we expect God to be a cosmic bellhop for us. Do this or that God. Hey God, I need more money. He doesn't operate like that. He desires our company for he created us for that. But he is not willing to "remove" all doubt. He wants us to seek him. We need to seek him to fully understand.

Unfortunately, there are many who would do for God what he would not do for himself. Instead of excelling in the fruits of the spirit, they find it easier to adopt a beligerant attitude towards those that seem to reject God. It's pretty normal, but it's not how God want's his disciples to act.

 

[H2Andy]

According to Muslim leaders Jihad is actually a personal war that one fights within oneself to conquer the devil (unbelief) within and reach God. They totally condemn twisting the idea to mean fighting an external battle against other people.

wellllll... yes and no. i am no Islamic scholar, so please treat
what follows as an amateur's view.

as i understand it, jihad means "holy war" and has been defined
as "the legal, compulsory, communal effort to expand the territories ruled by Muslims at the expense of territories ruled by non-Muslims."

jihad is not about spreading Islam but about extending sovereign Muslim power (in other words, grab more land). this is because
"foreigners" can remain non-Islamic under Muslim law. of
course, if they convert, all the better.

now, jihad did have two meanings through the centuries, one more radical than the other. the first one basically says that muslims who interpret their faith differently are infidels and therefore can be attacked. the second meaning is the one you're talking about, which is associated with mystics and rejects the legal definition of jihad as armed conflict and tells muslims to withdraw from the worldly concerns to achieve spiritual depth (i.e. to fight the inner demons).

however, jihad in the sense of territorial expansion has always been a central aspect of muslim life. That's how muslims came to rule much of the Arabian Peninsula by the time of the Prophet Muhammad's death in 632, and by 750 had conquered a region from Afghanistan to Spain. later, jihad spurred and justified muslim conquests of such territories as India, Sudan, Turkey, and the Balkans.

this is what Osama Bin Laden and his followers mean by
jihad. and when the radical muslim clerics call for jihad, they
call for a war against the infidel (everybody else).

notice that i say "radical muslim clerics." the majority of
Muslims have as much to do with Jihad as we have to do
with the Crusades. it is part of our history, but no more.

unfortunately, this "holy war" is a powerful call to arms to
very unhappy, disastisfied people, who see the West as
a threat and who feel they have been mistreated by the
western powers.

just think about what it takes to strap yourself to a vest
full of dynamite, walk into a supermarket where women and
children are walking, and blow yourself and them up to
smithereens.