What do you do when donating to a panicked diver who initiates a buoyant ascent?

[Bowcaps]

This. Done it at least three times.
But I was the instructor, and the panic diver was a student, so I was forced to stay with them and control the ascent for ensuring it was safe.
In one of these cases the problem started during the mask evacuation exercise.
The student removed the mask and the sudden flooding of nostrils triggered the neonatal mammalian reflex, which causes the epiglottis to close. So he was unable to breath anymore, spitted his perfectly working reg, grabbed my one, but when he realised that he was yet unable to breath, he panicked and sprinted towards the surface.
I grabbed his harness and ascended with him.
He was not exhaling, as the glottis was closed.
So I inserted two fingers in his mouth and forced the glottis to open, getting good bubbling.
Everything was fine in the end...
If I had left him going free, he had very easily ruptured his lungs.

During our submarine escape training (30m tank) if a student does not breath out constantly during an ascent, an instructor (they were strategically placed in blisters up the tank) would swim to the student and administer a gut punch, we soon got the idea.

Perhaps another question here, we always had enough air in our lungs to ascend 30m, constantly blowing out, I guess the psychological aspect takes over when in open water, that and nitrogen bubbles.

 

[Belzelbub]

I'd recommend taking a rescue class. I took one last year, and I'm no rescue diver now, but two things that the class really hammered in are 1) don't become a victim.

And 2) in-water rescue of a panicked diver is basically hand-to-hand combat.

Yep. In my course, we practiced several scenarios at the surface, and underwater. The first point was definitely hammered into our heads over and over. Easier to accomplish at the surface as you can submerge and approach from below. A panicked diver at the surface is not likely to follow you down.

At depth, it can a bit more difficult. The panicked diver is not going to be making good decisions at least until they’ve calmed down. The donating diver needs to be in control. My instructor recommended grabbing their inflator and controlling buoyancy for both. If it becomes a struggle that could endanger you, go negative. One victim is better than two, and if it becomes necessary, you can continue the rescue at the surface.

 

[UofMI_Divegeek]

With respect to hand to hand combat ... absolutely ... a "dive parasite" who has lost control is a threat to themselves and anyone attempting rescue, so rescuer should always have an escape route.

I am a firm believer that training should, as much as possible, approach the real scenario. As such, in the days I was running rescue classes (40 hours lecture, 20 hours in-water for 4 students max), I did the following exercise:

Each student was asked to swim a small box pattern. They were told I would be above and behind them to observe their kick stroke and that their comfort in the water would dictate the rest of the day's exercises.

On the third leg, I removed my regulator and then I would come at them from behind, hit their shoulder, and spin them to face me. I would then give a frantic "out of air" and the "I want to share air" signals.

Since a real situation is much more intense than typical relaxed only a few times "I am out of air" in recreational class drills, I received a variety of responses to my scenario ... most would not, in my opinion, have been successful. (When I was trained as an instructor (1980), the staff was insistent that any skill done less than 17 times was easily extinguished)

Some interesting observed responses:

A student started to hand me her primary, as soon as the regulator got in front of me, she remembered she had a secondary, withdrew her primary, and handed me the secondary.

A student knew I needed additional air, but spent the entire ascent banging his secondary into my face mask. (repetitive behavior is a common stressed response)

Several students simply froze and had to be assisted to the surface.

Once, I was handed a second stage while the mouth piece remained in the octo-holder.

Every student who went through this exercise considered it to be enlightening ... just a demonstration of being human.

Lastly, something to consider:

To the dive parasite coming at you ... the only regulator they see is one in your mouth. So be prepared to defend your life.

Legal disclaimer: don't try the above exercise unless you are certain that you can handle the results of a surprised, stressed student.

 

[johndiver999]

What does defend your life and the primary regulator in view mean?

 

[UofMI_Divegeek]

What does defend your life and the primary regulator in view mean?

To the stressed, out of air human (the "dive parasite"), (their reasoning and perceptions are hindered / narrowed) .... the only functioning source of air they see (if they are not already escaping to the surface) is the one in your mouth. There may be no signal ... they may simply, without warning and quite unceremoniously rip the regulator out of your mouth. This could be life threatening.

 

[johndiver999]

To the stressed, out of air human, their reasoning and perceptions are hindered / narrowed .... the only functioning source of air they see (if they are not already escaping to the surface) is the one in your mouth. There may be no signal ... they may simply, without warning and quite unceremoniously grab the regulator in your mouth. This could be life threatening.

How ridiculous that is. All divers have another second stage. If someone takes mine, I grab another. It is just not that big of a deal and telling people otherwise only makes the whole thing much worse than it needs to be. I tell buddies that if they need air just take the reg from my mouth.

 

[UofMI_Divegeek]

It may be ridiculous, but a panicked human being is not rationale and surface logic is simply inadequate to describe human behavior underwater under perceived life-threat stress.

So, prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

If you can find them, here are some references (not complete or definitive ... just stuff in my personal library) that might prove useful:

-----, STUDIES ON HUMAN PERFORMANCE IN THE SEA, Hawaii Sea Grant, Sept. 1975, 350 pages.

Adolfson, J. and Berhage, T. PERCEPTION AND PERFORMANCE UNDERWATER, John Wiley & Sons, New York, NY. 1974, 359 pages.

Athletic Institute, HUMAN PERFORMANCE AND SCUBA DIVING, Athletic Institute, Chicago, IL. 1970, 170 pages.

Bachrach, A. & Engstrom, G. STRESS AND PERFORMANCE IN DIVING, Best Publishing, San Pedro, CA. 1987, 183 pages.

Nevo,B. & Breitstein, S. PSYCHOLOGICAL AND BEHAVIORAL ASPECTS OF DIVING, Best, Flagstaff, AZ. 1999, 192 pages.

The last two references are considered by many to be the classic works.

 

[BoltSnap]

o the stressed, out of air human (the "dive parasite"), (their reasoning and perceptions are hindered / narrowed) .... the only functioning source of air they see (if they are not already escaping to the surface) is the one in your mouth. There may be no signal ... they may simply, without warning and quite unceremoniously rip the regulator out of your mouth. This could be life threatening.

Rat,

Then make the primary you have in your mouth on a longer hose, 120cm, and that's the one the parasite gets and you switch to the alternate on a short hose on a bungee. That's what is called "Primary Donate" configuration. I agree with you 100%, most of the time, the parasite will be jumping on the second stage in your mouth without warning or anything. The greater majority of divers never practice skills after their completing courses and will forget the details of how to do these skills few years down the road if they aren't practicing them on regular basis. Sharing air is one of them.

 

[BoltSnap]

Bachrach, A. & Engstrom, G. STRESS AND PERFORMANCE IN DIVING, Best Publishing, San Pedro, CA. 1987, 183 pages.

This one used to be a "must read" but I don't think that you can find it anymore.

 

[UofMI_Divegeek]

CMDR,
I am not a fan of longer hoses (except in cave diving mode for secondary) 'cause the long loop of the hose is a potential snag source. But, your sharing mode seems viable.

and, for me, as a limited vis, extreme current diver, one of my prime concerns is snagging.

I whole heatedly agree that many basic skills are lost post training.

Here is a rather interesting story about air sharing that was told to me:

Couple Communication

The exact protocol, to me, is not that important, as long as buddy divers agree to their practiced emergency behavior.

and

protocols may be different in different environments.