Well I think that I am Finally getting a clue but I need a little bit of Advice

[JPBECK]

Intruder--- you are a smart man--- Using both computer and tables will help you develope good habits, plan better dives, and build in redundency! Redundency is the friend to divers---Redundency and O2---

Take a EAN course too so you dont have to worry about Nitrogen loading as much as using AIR!

 

[MikeFerrara]

Your point about batteries and blinking lights just got blown out the window when you told him to get a wrist mount Bottom timer- I hope you also want him to get a depth gauge as well--- you forgot to mention that--- Also I hope you can lead him to a bottom timer that does not run on batteries-- and a Depth gauge that is mechanical as well---

The reason I don't use a computer isn't because it could fail. I don't use one because I don't need one.

Did you tell him how much all that cost--- almost the same as a computer in some cases!

My bottom timer cost me $120

 

[Jambi]

Jambi - you can press your luck every bit as much with tables as with computers - neither one is inherently safer. Frankly, I'd trust a computer to do its calculations better than your average diver on the tables - how many times have you made a table error? If a computer malfunctions, you usually know it.

Agreed. You can press your luck with any device. That all comes down to a judgement call on the diver. I also agree that the computer is probably not going to make a mistake it's calculations, I mean it is a computer after all. I was mearly suggesting that there might be some inconsistencies in they way a computer my recieve enviromental information. That is all. I have indeed made mistakes with my tables. That is why I always recheck them, Then I give it to my buddy for them to check my work. So far I have caught every mistake I have have made before it became a problem. I also like to think the my buddy and I are smarter than average .
One of my points was that if your computer does fail, because you were using it merely as a tool and not relying on it and still did your tables you can still dive and not have to scrap the rest of the day. I just like to rely on my ability to problem solve and think. I can't do that with out the required information, which I would not have if I soley relied on my computer and never picked up a table.

Most computers give you the information you need to be as conservative as you want - and some computers are more conservative than others - if that is what you are looking for, you can easily find it. Nor do the tables calculate residual nitrogen better than a computer, as your post seems to indicate.

Also agreed. Many of not most computers will allow you to adjust the settings. Making it more conservative if desired. A feature easily found as you have stated.
As for the tables calculating residual nitrogen, that was not intended. Tables are after all a type of one size fits all device. A computer just calculates it in a more dynamic way instead if a consistent flat bottom profile.

All that said - DAN estimates 1 in 28,000 divers experience DCS when diving within the tables (or computer).

And my life insuance still rates me for diving :frown2:.

Reguardless of how you look at it. I am of the opinion to spend less money on the "lower tech" option. Learn to rely on myself first. Use the saved money on more training then use the tools that are best for each diving situation. Hopefully never becoming reliant on a piece of equipment than can fail with out having an acceptable back up. Do I use a computer? yes. Do I have a backup? Yes, it's my brain and the tables that I used before jumping in the water. This way I can compare them to the computer.




Jambi

 

[JPBECK]

I wasnt really talking to you but --Fine --- Your bottom timer cost $120.00 how much did you Depth gauge cost--- Assuming that it is seperate...

Things do fail! I know that from expierence--- Mine failed at 250fsw with more than an hour of deco time above my head! By the way that was I dive I did on tables my primay depth gauge failed! My computer back up is what saved me a trip to the Chamber

 

[Snowbear]

"Bottom Timers" measure time and depth.

 

[JPBECK]

Oh did I mention that with my computer I ended up staying in the water deco-ing for an extra 25 minutes! So much for computers "Pushing the Limits"---

 

[JPBECK]

Thats funny my watch doesnt and its a bottom timer.

 

[Jambi]

Your point about batteries and blinking lights just got blown out the window when you told him to get a wrist mount Bottom timer- I hope you also want him to get a depth gauge as well--- you forgot to mention that--- Also I hope you can lead him to a bottom timer that does not run on batteries-- and a Depth gauge that is mechanical as well--- Did you tell him how much all that cost--- almost the same as a computer in some cases!

Good point. I never suggested that a wrist mounted bottom times had to be digital. I suppose it was implied however. A wrist mounted bottom timer could just as easily be a analog watch.

Yes we all need tables--- No we all dont need computers--- But on the flip side he wants a computer---- So let him get a computer--- Not everyone wants to plan thier dives with tables--- No everyone is good at it either--- How many times have you, while planning a dive moved you finger over by mistake and instead of making yourself a C diver you made yourself a B diver--- A mistake common to new divers! I know for a fact that it happens all the time! I've seen people pay dearly for that mistake.

I am in no way suggesting that he cannot have a computer if he wants one. Thats not my intention. I was just trying to present some different sides of the story.
You are right that certain mistakes are not limited only to new diver and they are infact easy to to do, even for the expericenced diver. That is why as I stated earlier I double check my profile from the start then hand it to one or more dive partners to check my work. It's all about redundancy right?

And by the way its not about need---in this case its about want--- We dont need to dive ---- But we want to!

Your absolutly right LOL! It's an addiction to most of us though

INTRUDERDIVER, remember JPBECK is right in that get what you want and not what other people want. The important thing is to remember to have fun!

And please there is no need to become heated over any of my comments. They are after all just some friendly conversation given all in the spirit of this board.



Jambi

 

[Jambi]

Do you really want to accept at face value, the residual nitrogen in your body. I don't. I always check my tables.

Jambi--by the way----

Unless you have a doppler that dives with you underwater and is somehow attached to your body--- You are taking the amount of Nitrogen at face value! Tables and computers are just models of tissue loading--- Every person has different rates of nitrogen loading--- Any Basic student knows this--- Or should!

Your right. In a sense you have to take the tables at face value. And I also understand that util we all get that submergable doppler no one will ever really know what a particular diver residual nitrogen is. I also understand that people have differing rates of nitrogen loading. That was expressed in my first post when I was speaking about the differing factors. Your also right in that every basic student should know this, hopefully. But until the day when those fancy shmancy computers have built in dopplers all we can do is take it all at face value, dive, have a good time and have a .



Until then I wish good times be had by all,

Jambi

 

[JPBECK]

Not heated just want the new divers to be able to read and understand both sides---If you see a fallacy in my writing you should address it...As you know I will!

He is doing the right thing by applying both sides... And that is what is important----

By the way having a little Doppler attached to you would be cool...If I say so myself.