Well I think that I am Finally getting a clue but I need a little bit of Advice

[JPBECK]

NAUI, SSI, ANDI, TDI, IANTD, NASDS, YMCA, GUE, ECT. ECT why does it have to be PADI tables--- Maybe they are just seperating PADI divers from the rest of the group so that they can hold their hands-----


Troll I know--- I am just kidding--- Could not Stop my fingers from typing it--- It was as if they have a mind of thier own!

 

[Jambi]

Well seems to me that we have some differing points of view, thats good and is exactly what this board is about. We have "Don't get a computer" vs "get a computer" and "mandatory" vs "not mandatory". All are valid points. So lets look at some of the facts shall we.

The computer will more than likely increase your bottom time, particularly on a multi-level dive. This is because the computer can calculate the tables on the fly. Meaning that it is figuring Nitrogen levels according to your depth and water temp. I do not know if 15-20 minutes more is possible. Perhaps some one can confirm or deny this.

Assuming the computer will keep you diving longer, you will be closer to that great big voodoo mystery called NDL that you instructor is probably teaching you to avoid like the plauge. The closer you get to the NDL on a particular dive, the greater the odds of a DCS hit. Which was implied in a above post. This is not to say that a computer will get you "bent". It mearly means that you are staying under longer. Bringing yourself closer to that NDL.

Computers can also fail, like any machine. So you should be doing your tables anyways as a backup and to compare against your computer. Computers can give out wachy numbers sometimes. But then again the standard table does not take into consideration varying depths. Most computers also use custom made algorithms that are capable of calculating multiple depths on the fly. Some people have found that some algorithms can be inconsistent with other information. Computers are also a big ticket/high price item are commonly stolen from luggage. People will carryon their computers to prevent this. It is recommended that you carry some info about it with to the air port, as the security monkeys get excited about anything with buttons and flashing lights.

Now onto the Tables.

Anyone ever heard of a plastic dive table failing? I haven't, except when the person using it made an error. Yes you may or will get less bottom time while diving. But is that such a bad thing when first starting out? Tables are tried and true. Most have been adapted from the Navy Dive Tables and extensivley tested. Besides you should be figuring the tables anyways and recording it in your log. I also don't think anyone has had dive tables stolen from their luggage. Tables are easily replaceable and you can share them with other people. Where as computer profiles are custom to one individual diver.

Do you really want to accept at face value, the residual nitrogen in your body. I don't. I always check my tables. If I lose my tables then odds are I can borrow one from my buddy or another diver. Computers may not take into consideration other factors. Such as, breathing rate, overall health, activity level in water, fatigue, Dehydration and general comfort of the diver. These are all things that a particular diver can take into account them selves. According to the rules you should add 10' to your profiles when diving in cold temps or strenuous conditions. Both of these things will increase nitrogen levels in the body. So will added fat or adipose tissue. I am a little over weight, so I have more adipose tissue that the test subjects did when they developed the tables and depending on the conditions I will add 10' to my profile to account for this. Adipose or fat tissue readily absorbes nitogen, therefore increasing my likely hood of getting bent. The other factors (there are more I'm sure)such as fatigue, hydration level and being comfortable in the water will affect how you absorb and "off gas" nitrogen. Some will argue that you should never dive while affected by some of these things but people do. Especialy when you are on a dive trip that you shelled out big money for. Airport security monkeys don't get all worked up over plastic dive tables (no buttons or flashing lights ).

Do you NEED a computer? No, Do you need dive tables? Yes

A computer will allow a diver to push the NDL when, many will argue, they least need to. And thats when they are new. Some will say that a computer can give a diver a false sense of security and teaches them to rely on a device that can fail. IMHO a new diver needs to learn how to use their most vital piece of equipment, their brain first(while diving). I know many intelligent people that turn their brain off as soon as they hit the water and let the computer take over. Basically learn to rely on your self, learn your tables, then if you still have the need or want, then buy a computer. After that use and rely on the computer for what it is, a tool or device that can fail at anytime without warning. Now at this point because you are not relying on your computer, been tracking your dives in your log, have a bottom timer and know what group your in, you can acend knowing your profile and your whole day of diving is not ruined, because you have tables and you know how to use them. Where as if your sole device was that computer and you haven't been using tables you can't safely dive again becuase you don't know where to start with your tables.

I think for a new diver your best bet is with a wrist mounted bottom timer and a SPG. Then spend the money you saved on more classes and build your experience. Remember, 15 or even 20 minutes of bottom time is never worth a chamber ride. If you want more bottom time get the training and learn how to manage it.

If you still want a computer and have the money to burn them send MikeFerrara a private message. It sounds like he's got plenty of computers I'm sure he's willing to depart with for a reasonable price.

BTW I'm with Mike on that you were not attacked my Rich. I'm sure it was merely a form of military Camaraderie. Being that Rich is former military.

Well Intruderdiver I hopte this helps. Rest assured that if anything in my post is off others will correct me, thankfully. And WELCOME TO THE BOARD! :happywave. Head on over to the "Introductions and Greets" section so we can welcome properly. And I hope you have a safe and fun trip to Mexico.




Jambi

 

[INTRUDERDIVER]

It is true you will have much shorter BT's dive on tables--- However you will be more conservitive. dive computers monitor your depth and constantly, where a table is planed for your maxium depth --- Tables dont care if you only spent 2 minutes at that depth you still have to come up according to that depth--- For instance if you are using air (icky, yuch) and you dive down to 100 fsw- your Dooper No- Deco limits 20 minutes (depending on what tables you are using)--- It doesnt matter if after 2 minutes you go back up to 40 fsw (where the no-deco limits are 130 minutes)--- You have to plan your dive and dive your plan....

Now look I do lots of stuff below 200fsw (trimix rebreather stuff) where I always use tables... But for crusing around in depths above 130fsw I use computers---

You didnt say what price range you want to stay within so I cant really help you on what type of computer to get ---- What does your instructor want you to get an Aries? If so I would ask for other options--- When I worked at a dive shop we had all sorts of problems with those things- They had many recalls too---

I can tell you what I use or have used in the past--- But I dont claim to know every computer out there...

Cochran Nemisis 2 a which is air intergrated Radio transmitted Wrist Unit --- 1200 bones--- Very expensive --lots of features you may not need I would not recommend it to you based on what you have told us about yourself.

I have a Cochran Commander Wrist Mount--- 500-600 bones- Very nice computer has 2 nitrox mixes or you can use air---- Ive gotten about 800 dives on it--- Still going strong---user replaceable batteries---Back light--- Computer interfaceable--- A little werid to program, takes getting use to... Good Warrenty, Good Company to deal with

Diverite Nitec--- 400-500 bones---Wrist mount ----Good computer--- air or nitrox--- easy to read display-- easy to program--- Computer interfaceable--- No back light --- Non user replaceable batteries ---- But good computer

I have a Suunto Cobra--- 700-800 bones Air intergrated Hose mount --- New RGBM tables --- has lots of cool features very popular--- and dependable--- Back light---- User replaceable batteries--- 2 year warrenty--Computer interface--- Quick disconect--- Really nice computer

Suunto Vitec-- Way Over kill for you

VR-3 Trimix/ Rebreather computer--- Again too much for you

Look around talk to people--- I am sorry noone else is willing to help you with the question you asked... I have been diving for many years and have been on both sides of the counter---

Tips for buying computers:

Start by researching prices on the net or go to differnt shops talk to people, talk to your instructor---Once you find one that fits you, find the best price--- Then go to your dive shop and tell them what you want and how much you are willing to pay (hopefully they carry many different brands). They will either accept your offer or tell you to Pound Sand.. If they tell you to pound sand then find a another dive shop to call home (you know what I mean)
If you buy from a shop you get the best of both worlds... Prices and (hopefully) Service...

Ok now let the dive shop/ Computer bashing begin... Play nice or I will bit back!

JPBECK,
Thanks for all the infromation. This is the ally I have been going down. I have talked to 10 different dive shops and I am going to one dive shop this weekend to schedule my open water exit dives and I think I am going to see what they have. This way if they are doing my certification they can also show my wife and I how to use the computer. Thanks again.

 

[Jambi]

Wow this thread sure moved fast. I should have typed faster!




Jambi

 

[INTRUDERDIVER]

As a former submariner, I understand about these types of "terms of endearment" (Do the words "target" for surface ships and "bubblehead" for the other ring a bell here? I could mention terms that sound less endearing, but this is a family board.). It sounds like a simple misunderstanding. My first assumption looking at that handle would have involved the A-6 Intruder myself.

But, we can't expect a civilian to understand all of the Naval traditions. Let's both sides cut each other a break.

Brian C. Palmer
former bubblehead "nuc"

Brian and everyone else,
You are correct that I have never heard this term and I guess there is a misunderstanding. I aplogize about the assumption. As for Navy terms I served 5 years as a SPOOK (CT) 2 years in Rota, Spain and 3 years in Denver, Colorado. I guess even being in the military you doing get all of the terms.

 

[gj62]

Jambi - you can press your luck every bit as much with tables as with computers - neither one is inherently safer. Frankly, I'd trust a computer to do its calculations better than your average diver on the tables - how many times have you made a table error? If a computer malfunctions, you usually know it.

Most computers give you the information you need to be as conservative as you want - and some computers are more conservative than others - if that is what you are looking for, you can easily find it. Nor do the tables calculate residual nitrogen better than a computer, as your post seems to indicate.

All that said - DAN estimates 1 in 28,000 divers experience DCS when diving within the tables (or computer).

 

[JPBECK]

Your point about batteries and blinking lights just got blown out the window when you told him to get a wrist mount Bottom timer- I hope you also want him to get a depth gauge as well--- you forgot to mention that--- Also I hope you can lead him to a bottom timer that does not run on batteries-- and a Depth gauge that is mechanical as well--- Did you tell him how much all that cost--- almost the same as a computer in some cases!

Yes we all need tables--- No we all dont need computers--- But on the flip side he wants a computer---- So let him get a computer--- Not everyone wants to plan thier dives with tables--- No everyone is good at it either--- How many times have you, while planning a dive moved you finger over by mistake and instead of making yourself a C diver you made yourself a B diver--- A mistake common to new divers! I know for a fact that it happens all the time! I've seen people pay dearly for that mistake.


And by the way its not about need---in this case its about want--- We dont need to dive ---- But we want to!

 

[INTRUDERDIVER]

Well seems to me that we have some differing points of view, thats good and is exactly what this board is about. We have "Don't get a computer" vs "get a computer" and "mandatory" vs "not mandatory". All are valid points. So lets look at some of the facts shall we.

The computer will more than likely increase your bottom time, particularly on a multi-level dive. This is because the computer can calculate the tables on the fly. Meaning that it is figuring Nitrogen levels according to your depth and water temp. I do not know if 15-20 minutes more is possible. Perhaps some one can confirm or deny this.

Assuming the computer will keep you diving longer, you will be closer to that great big voodoo mystery called NDL that you instructor is probably teaching you to avoid like the plauge. The closer you get to the NDL on a particular dive, the greater the odds of a DCS hit. Which was implied in a above post. This is not to say that a computer will get you "bent". It mearly means that you are staying under longer. Bringing yourself closer to that NDL.

Computers can also fail, like any machine. So you should be doing your tables anyways as a backup and to compare against your computer. Computers can give out wachy numbers sometimes. But then again the standard table does not take into consideration varying depths. Most computers also use custom made algorithms that are capable of calculating multiple depths on the fly. Some people have found that some algorithms can be inconsistent with other information. Computers are also a big ticket/high price item are commonly stolen from luggage. People will carryon their computers to prevent this. It is recommended that you carry some info about it with to the air port, as the security monkeys get excited about anything with buttons and flashing lights.

Now onto the Tables.

Anyone ever heard of a plastic dive table failing? I haven't, except when the person using it made an error. Yes you may or will get less bottom time while diving. But is that such a bad thing when first starting out? Tables are tried and true. Most have been adapted from the Navy Dive Tables and extensivley tested. Besides you should be figuring the tables anyways and recording it in your log. I also don't think anyone has had dive tables stolen from their luggage. Tables are easily replaceable and you can share them with other people. Where as computer profiles are custom to one individual diver.

Do you really want to accept at face value, the residual nitrogen in your body. I don't. I always check my tables. If I lose my tables then odds are I can borrow one from my buddy or another diver. Computers may not take into consideration other factors. Such as, breathing rate, overall health, activity level in water, fatigue, Dehydration and general comfort of the diver. These are all things that a particular diver can take into account them selves. According to the rules you should add 10' to your profiles when diving in cold temps or strenuous conditions. Both of these things will increase nitrogen levels in the body. So will added fat or adipose tissue. I am a little over weight, so I have more adipose tissue that the test subjects did when they developed the tables and depending on the conditions I will add 10' to my profile to account for this. Adipose or fat tissue readily absorbes nitogen, therefore increasing my likely hood of getting bent. The other factors (there are more I'm sure)such as fatigue, hydration level and being comfortable in the water will affect how you absorb and "off gas" nitrogen. Some will argue that you should never dive while affected by some of these things but people do. Especialy when you are on a dive trip that you shelled out big money for. Airport security monkeys don't get all worked up over plastic dive tables (no buttons or flashing lights ).

Do you NEED a computer? No, Do you need dive tables? Yes

A computer will allow a diver to push the NDL when, many will argue, they least need to. And thats when they are new. Some will say that a computer can give a diver a false sense of security and teaches them to rely on a device that can fail. IMHO a new diver needs to learn how to use their most vital piece of equipment, their brain first(while diving). I know many intelligent people that turn their brain off as soon as they hit the water and let the computer take over. Basically learn to rely on your self, learn your tables, then if you still have the need or want, then buy a computer. After that use and rely on the computer for what it is, a tool or device that can fail at anytime without warning. Now at this point because you are not relying on your computer, been tracking your dives in your log, have a bottom timer and know what group your in, you can acend knowing your profile and your whole day of diving is not ruined, because you have tables and you know how to use them. Where as if your sole device was that computer and you haven't been using tables you can't safely dive again becuase you don't know where to start with your tables.

I think for a new diver your best bet is with a wrist mounted bottom timer and a SPG. Then spend the money you saved on more classes and build your experience. Remember, 15 or even 20 minutes of bottom time is never worth a chamber ride. If you want more bottom time get the training and learn how to manage it.

If you still want a computer and have the money to burn them send MikeFerrara a private message. It sounds like he's got plenty of computers I'm sure he's willing to depart with for a reasonable price.

BTW I'm with Mike on that you were not attacked my Rich. I'm sure it was merely a form of military Camaraderie. Being that Rich is former military.

Well Intruderdiver I hopte this helps. Rest assured that if anything in my post is off others will correct me, thankfully. And WELCOME TO THE BOARD! :happywave. Head on over to the "Introductions and Greets" section so we can welcome properly. And I hope you have a safe and fun trip to Mexico.




Jambi

Jambi,
Thanks for all the information. I think that I am going to take a little bit of advice from everyone that has posted to this thread. First I don't think that I am going to take things so serious that I start another arugument on the thread. The other thing I am going to do is talk to more dive shops and talk to my instructor for my exit water dive and see what he says. If I end up purchasing a dive computer before we go down to mexico I think I am going to use two different methods. I will use my dive tables just to make sure that I know that I am using my computer correctly and I will keep a log for my dive tables and my computer. This way I think I have everything covered.

IntruderDiver

 

[JPBECK]

Do you really want to accept at face value, the residual nitrogen in your body. I don't. I always check my tables.

Jambi--by the way----

Unless you have a doppler that dives with you underwater and is somehow attached to your body--- You are taking the amount of Nitrogen at face value! Tables and computers are just models of tissue loading--- Every person has different rates of nitrogen loading--- Any Basic student knows this--- Or should!

 

[jhelmuth]

Intruder,

Sorry you seemed to have gotten some initial replies which are not really helpful (or on target) - but that is the nature of the internet...

RE: Which computer
[1] While I agree with Wendy's philosophical point of view, it is really quite true that many (if not most) dive ops will not take divers out without computers. So yours is a very relevant question (we could hash this out quite a bit and never get around to answering your question)
[2] As computers go, I personally think of mine as back-ups to my primary - my dive plan and familiarity with my breathing rate (SAC), depth, activity, currents, safety margins, and deco plan (assent rates and stops)
[3] If money is not an object, get one which will give you the ability to log your dives (software), are compatible with EAN32 and EAN 36 (minimum), can provide you with remaining bottom time (RBT), and have all the other features which may be important to you (IE - wrist mounted, AI, future diving considerations [like technical diving], etc.)
[4] If money is an object - or your view is that you want out as cheaply as possible then... consider the EAN compatibility (as it is likely to be in many divers future and you don't want to buy it twice)... look carefully at the after purchase costs (user changeable batteries, annual maintenance costs, etc)... and reputation of the computer as reliable and serviceable.

#'s 3 and 4 will require that you do a lot of hard thinking, research and a bit of luck. Don’t let any of us make a recommendation that you take blindly on faith that we know what's best (there are many bests out there - in spite of what you may hear to the contrary).

Now for my recommendation. Without knowing anything else, I'd recommend that you look at the brands and models that meet the above requirements in either #3 or #4 AND have a strong, rock-solid backing from the LDS which you feel most comfortable with. Buy from them and insist that they put all the facts regarding how they'll stand by the product in writing. I'd also ask for "loaners" or the models you are considering so that you can get a feel for what you like and don't like. My biggest concern for you is that you'll buy something that you'll want (or have to) replace because of your level of experience.

What I bought: Uwatec Smart COM (actually 3 - one for each member of the family). Have never regretted it, in spite of the not-so-recent recall (which worked out quite well as now I have actual experience with their service). To me it was the best value for what I/we were looking for in a dive computer.

BUT REMEBER... this thing is a back up! Learn to dive with your brain 1st!