Warped Dive World Evolution - BP/W Subgroup Mindset

[cool_hardware52]

This thread is not about me,

In my opinion it's all about you. Most of your posts are.

Why you feel compelled to engage in these pointless quests?







Tobin

 

[Splitlip]

Sorry, not being a smart ass, but this is a lengthy thread. What 2 topics are you speaking of and what "categories" of which you speak of here?

The vast majority of BP/W users I have encountered have fallen into at least one of the categories I list; most fall into at least two.

I scanned the entire thread. I think I have the topics, but not the categories.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I thought you said you hadn't seen many in Hawaii? You've used this as an argument before of why you see jacket BCs as fine.

I have worked with two SB members who are tech instructors. The repair tech at my lds, an lds that also sells gear to local commercial divers, guides in an Apeks rig (AL dealer). I have made a dive with TSandM and I have made a dive with our mutual friend Kidspot and ScubaSeanMaui. There are a number of other SB members here in Hawaii who dive BP/W. All those mentioned above are mostly tech divers, tech instructors and research divers.

I have said the dive operators I have worked for do not get many BP/W divers as customers. I have said that since the vast majority of divers I have seen diving are diving just fine in Vest BC's it seems just fine to consider Vest BC's if one is going to be diving in similar conditions as I have. :kiss2:

So you make your opinions on what was used in Florida a *decade* ago and the small patch of turf you dive in now? Hmmm...

Sort of, but I also include what I have seen of the profiles of the BP/W proponent SB members who so often try to convince people asking for advise about which BC to buy. And then when people are asking for advise on SB about which BC to buy, when I give my opinion I qualify it as my opinion, often over qualifying that opinion as also being the opinion of a warm water diver who dives gear very similar to the vast majority.

What is the big deal if people recommend new divers BP/Ws with only their anecdotal opinion? That constitutes nearly all of the posts on SB recommending gear, not just BP/Ws.

I contend that I have NEVER made a big deal of people recommending new divers buy BP/W's with just their anecdotal opinion. I have made counter points when the new diver was trained in Vest BC's and only dives in warm water. I contend that the only time I make a big deal of people making recommendations with their anecdotal opinion is when they type it as absolute fact!

You recommend things about BP/Ws when you haven't even tried one, like the draft being more and that some shore dives in Hawaii do not work with a BP/W... How would you even know? You haven't tried them out...

I am 6', 180 lbs, and diving with an AL80 in my Vest BC I have a never had a problem making a Mala shore dive by swimming out from the sandy 2' deep water just steps from the parking lot and 10 feet from the beach. An "experienced" petite BP/W diver evidently contends that she can not similarly swim out in her BP/W and another at the very least back inflate member evidently also contends the same.

Since we are in the trenches, slugging it out, I guess we HAVE look at that conversation, without making up stuff!

or the Mala Pier dive (where the entry on the "legal" side involves hiking through coral heads for a ways)

The Mala Ramp dive was a little bit of a challenge....for the first dive. We entered on the left (legal?) side of the pier and had quite the little adventure hiking out about 300 yards over the rocks in two feet of water with the surf coming in. (Legal or not....terrible entry)

I really have a hard time allowing recommendations that will lead to significant entry coral damage by scuba divers who would hesitate to touch coral gently during the dive.

"hiking out about 300 yards over the rocks in two feet of water with the surf coming in. (Legal or not....terrible entry)"

I have both fun dived and guided many Mala dives; I have never crossed the boat channel and I have never walked out over the shallow reef. Sometimes the ethical thing for a shore diver to do is to pay for some local knowledge. Do a guided first dive at challenging sites, with a competent and ethical guide, so you can learn how to do the dives with the least damage, least effort and least laws broken!

This thread has multiple SB members talking about illegal parking, unsafe dive planning, violating basic Marine Law and walking on coral! All to save a few dollars?

I had the best kind of guide for my first half dozen dives at the Mala pier -- I had a friend who LIVED in Lahaina and dove there often. I would still describe the entry on the left side as hiking out among coral heads. If there is another, legal way to enter without having to do that, I'm sure a lot of us would like to know what it is -- including some of the local residents!

I don't dive without a guide because I'm cheap. I dive without a guide because I don't need one, and because I prefer a dive where I set the pace and I decide what I want to stop and look at.

If there is a dive site where your only entry options are hiking through coral heads or illegally surface swimming across an active boat channel, I am of the opinion you need a guide for that dive.

Most Mala divers dive Mala from boats; no walking on the living reef and no laws broken. There are many days when shore diving Mala is not ethically possible, even though the conditions on the dive site are fine; it's all about the entry!

Some shore divers should not shore dive Mala except around high tide; some shore divers should not shore dive Mala. For some divers, losing weight would be the only way to ethically shore dive Mala!

There are dive sites where BP/W, even back inflate BC's, probably are not the proper buoyancy control device. There are many guides on the West side who can ethically guide a Mala shore dive, but sometimes that might require NOT taking some divers on the Mala shore dive.

There are dive sites where BP/W, even back inflate BC's, probably are not the proper buoyancy control device.

Can you explain this? I am assuming that you are saying there are dive sites one shouldn't dive in anything but a jacket BC? What's your basis for that statement?

(I just bolded probably, just for you Sas!)

I still find it interesting that for all of the dribble being spewed forth, a better (legal?) entry at this site has not been mentioned. Everything that I found online, as well as a couple of locals that we talked to, before inquiring at the shop, was to enter on the left of the pier. (where coral heads can be damaged)

This is supposed to be a "do not miss dive" while in Maui, unless apparently, you are fat or wearing the improper style of BCD....WOW....hard to argue with that.

(please remember the bolded part above - enter on the left of the pier)

I still find it interesting that for all of the dribble being spewed forth, a better (legal?) entry at this site has not been mentioned.

Again; reading comprehension.

Most Mala divers dive Mala from boats; no walking on the living reef and no laws broken.

Can you explain this? I am assuming that you are saying there are dive sites one shouldn't dive in anything but a jacket BC? What's your basis for that statement?

What is your draft in your fully inflated BP/W compared to the draft of a diver in a fully inflated vest BC?

If you are unable to enter without walking on living reef or violating basic Marine and State laws you should not be entering.

I am contending that the draft of a vest BC diver is less than the draft of a diver with inflation on the back.

In all your previous statements of entering Mala on ScubaBoard have you ever explained that you laboriously only step on sand? I believe your previous statements have resulted in numerous SB members and lurkers walking on living reef. I find it hard to believe one can walk out past the reef only stepping on sand.

Again, for at least the third time in this thread, I am being attacked for saying or not saying things that I either did not say or did say!

Reading comprehension?

you imply that hiring a guide like you will get somebody into the water at that site without breaking any rules and without damaging anything

Do a guided first dive at challenging sites, with a competent and ethical guide, so you can learn how to do the dives with the least damage, least effort and least laws broken!

If you can't shore dive a site ethically, don't dive it from shore!

Even if there was a "reef Jesus" who could "only step on sand" how many of the people following that example "step only on sand." Some things are done properly because setting a proper example is what's ethical.

....

My opinion is that the shallow reef can be face down surface swam and the damage to the reef is considerably less, plus we mostly go the same route every time so localization of damage as well as lessening overall.

 

[Sas]

I am 6', 180 lbs, and diving with an AL80 in my Vest BC I have a never had a problem making a Mala shore dive by swimming out from the sandy 2' deep water just steps from the parking lot and 10 feet from the beach. An "experienced" petite BP/W diver evidently contends that she can not similarly swim out in her BP/W and another at the very least back inflate member evidently also contends the same.

Wow so two people means you think that it is not suitable for that type of diving? I thought you were all about scientific evidence rather than just anecdotal

Actually I have no idea what they said, tl: dr. But either way I don't think that means you can make the case for BP/W being inappropriate.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Sorry, not being a smart ass, but this is a lengthy thread. What 2 topics are you speaking of and what "categories" of which you speak of here?

I scanned the entire thread. I think I have the topics, but not the categories.

Yes, yes, yes; plenty of people seem to NEED cliff notes to participate. All you would have had to do is actually read the previous two pages (cliff note - 17 & 18).

The current crop of questions have nothing what so ever to do with the topic of this thread. The topic is what are the reason BP/W divers made the change to BP/W? This thread is not about me, it is about reasons people chose to dive with BP/W.

An alternate concept in the thread is BP/W proponents stating their anecdotal opinion as if it were fact when advising people who are seeking information with which to make a decision. There are plenty of valid reasons one might chose a BP/W, so there should be no reason to MAKE UP reasons.

....

I think the top valid reasons someone should consider a BP/W are a strong desire to eventually go tech, cold water diving necessitating a Dry Suit, someone really big and someone wanting to use doubles. By typing I think, I qualify it so that it is obviously my opinion. That way if you think differently, I am not implying that your thoughts are inferior.

That is my point in all of this lately; we are all scuba divers so we have something in common and we could easily get along better if we typed in a way that accurately described anecdotal opinion as anecdotal opinion.

Just underlined and bolded in that last part!

 

[ScubaSteve]

In water ability has less to do with No of dives than No of posts spent out of the water.

How do you figure this? Time in the water is the main way of a diver refining their skills. I agree that # of dives guarantees you nothing other than a diver with a low dive count will lack experience (this is not calling them a bad diver). Unless the poster is lying about their count, then there is no disputing this.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

In my opinion it's all about you. Most of your posts are.

Why you feel compelled to engage in these pointless quests?







Tobin

So basically you are admitting to stretching the truth to make a SALES PITCH, but hiding that message by attacking the messenger!

 

[cool_hardware52]

I have worked with two SB members who are tech instructors. The repair tech at my lds, an lds that also sells gear to local commercial divers, guides in an Apeks rig (AL dealer). I have made a dive with TSandM and I have made a dive with our mutual friend Kidspot and ScubaSeanMaui. There are a number of other SB members here in Hawaii who dive BP/W. All those mentioned above are mostly tech divers, tech instructors and research divers.

I have said the dive operators I have worked for do not get many BP/W divers as customers. I have said that since the vast majority of divers I have seen diving are diving just fine in Vest BC's it seems just fine to consider Vest BC's if one is going to be diving in similar conditions as I have. :kiss2:



Sort of, but I also include what I have seen of the profiles of the BP/W proponent SB members who so often try to convince people asking for advise about which BC to buy. And then when people are asking for advise on SB about which BC to buy, when I give my opinion I qualify it as my opinion, often over qualifying that opinion as also being the opinion of a warm water diver who dives gear very similar to the vast majority.



I contend that I have NEVER made a big deal of people recommending new divers buy BP/W's with just their anecdotal opinion. I have made counter points when the new diver was trained in Vest BC's and only dives in warm water. I contend that the only time I make a big deal of people making recommendations with their anecdotal opinion is when they type it as absolute fact!



I am 6', 180 lbs, and diving with an AL80 in my Vest BC I have a never had a problem making a Mala shore dive by swimming out from the sandy 2' deep water just steps from the parking lot and 10 feet from the beach. An "experienced" petite BP/W diver evidently contends that she can not similarly swim out in her BP/W and another at the very least back inflate member evidently also contends the same.

Since we are in the trenches, slugging it out, I guess we HAVE look at that conversation, without making up stuff!













(I just bolded probably, just for you Sas!)



(please remember the bolded part above - enter on the left of the pier)

I have a hypotheses that there is a direct correlation between the length response, use of multiquotes, references to old past threads, use of BOLD & Colored Fonts and the use of disrepectfully smiles and how badly a member is loosing the debate.

No need to read, just measure the column inches, count the quotes, bold and colored fonts and smilies etc. and one can tell just how deep the hole currently is.

Some don't know when to stop digging.

Tobin

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Wow so two people means you think that it is not suitable for that type of diving? I thought you were all about scientific evidence rather than just anecdotal

Actually I have no idea what they said, tl: dr. But either way I don't think that means you can make the case for BP/W being inappropriate.

I bolded the word probably, just for you, trying to allow you to see that I was not making a scientific fact, I was expressing a possiblity.

The "MALA" conversation is about unethically walking across a living reef to make a shore dive, not about which BC a diver should buy. Those opinions, that were stated as opinion, have never surfaced in a thread where someone was looking for advise on which BC to buy.

If you can't attack the message, by all means join the party and attack the messenger!

 

[Sas]

I bolded the word probably, just for you, trying to allow you to see that I was not making a scientific fact, I was expressing a possiblity.

The "MALA" conversation is about unethically walking across a living reef to make a shore dive, not about which BC a diver should buy. Those opinions, that were stated as opinion, have never surfaced in a thread where someone was looking for advise on which BC to buy.

If you can't attack the message, by all means join the party and attack the messenger!

I was attacking both your message for being wrong and you for being hypocritical actually.