Warped Dive World Evolution - BP/W Subgroup Mindset

[Blackwood]

There is a pronounced tendency among some BP/w divers who post on SB to suggest that a BP/w the one universal tool that best suits all divers.​

In order to test this hypothesis

[snip]

I believe that my hypothesis (above) is correct.

What data did you collect as to what type of BCD those responding to your polls were using?

I saw none, but it seems like you'd need that to support a hypothesis beginning with 'There is a pronounced tendency among some BP/w divers...'

I sometimes suggest using gear that I don't own, and I also sometimes suggest not using gear that I do own.

Perhaps a more interesting poll along the lines of the language in yours would be:

Choose a universal tool:
1) BP/W
2) Jacket BC
3) Both
4) Neither

 

[Blackwood]

Please look for the pertinent info in the OP

The most important part of the OP is this:

I truly want to know why you chose to go the BP/W route?

There are a number of posts following which honestly answer this question.

Here's a non-exhaustive list of such replies: Post #2, Post #3, Post #4, Post #5, Post #7, Post #11, Post #12, Post #14, Post #22, Post #26, Post #27, Post #28, Post #29, Post #30, Post #32, Post #33, Post #35, Post #36, Post #38, Post #42.


Any particular reason you don't appear to have read them and said "oh that makes sense," or "I disagree and here's why"?

If you did, I apologize, but I can't find it. The closest I can find is you commenting that DevonDiver is in no position to express an educated opinion on vest BCs, which is completely irrelevant to the topic.

Instead, you go off on some tangent for a few pages about people posting opinions as facts, 'sloppy typing', streamlining & venting, Lynne's unrelated thread and whatnot. And then it just gets silly and pedantic.

If that's what you want to discuss, edit the first post. Otherwise, acknowledge some of the posts which directly address that which you "truly want to know."

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

So, just to be clear, the type of diving one does is directly related to how many dives one has? IE a person with 20 dives is a basic diver while someone with 1000+ can only do advanced dives?

Crap! I'm screwed as I don't have a lot of interest in advanced dives but I have no intention of quitting after "several hundred" dives.

10 years ago I had no interest in being anything other than an occasional reef diver ... and look how that turned out ... :shocked2:

One discovers after getting comfortable in the water that there's a lot of "unique" interests to experience whilst blowing bubbles ... but many of them require additional training ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If you can't attack the message, by all means join the party and attack the messenger!

the new topic of attack the messenger since we can't attack the message!.

not attacking the message, but instead attacking the messenger....

since the message in this thread is not about ethically entering the MALA shore dive.

... so what is the message?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Teamcasa]

I posted this here but it seems relevant to The OP's basic question.

My thoughts on this seeming endless debate.

BCDs come in many shapes and designs but they all do at a minimum, two things, help with your buoyancy control and hold your tank(s) in place. Some use a wraparound air cell and others utilize a single air cell. Some have a hard backplate, some have a plastic and still others use a fabric plate. Some have crotch straps, others don’t.

Virtually all designs will fit someone perfectly if adjusted properly. Jacket BC systems work perfectly well for most of the recreational diving but sadly, most of them were never adjusted or fitted properly to its owner.

A few people, based on their own body shape, will have a very difficult time using a jacket BC due to the adjustment limitations inherent in a jacket BC. The fitting of a jacket BC is more than just yank the straps until they are tight, but again, most shops don’t know how to adjust one properly and as a result, many jacket BC’s do not perform very well. Add to this, most of these people never realize the poor performance is due to the improper fitting, not the basic design. (If they even realize that it is performing poorly in the first place.)

A BP/W configuration is more flexible by design but if poorly adjusted, it will not perform any different than a poorly fitting jacket. Add to that, BP/W will be closer to a good fit, even if fitted poorly.

Here’s the rub. Most of the divers that use a BP/W are generally more experienced divers and know how to setup a harness and plate to fit properly. Experienced jacket divers also know how to adjust their setup and are perfectly comfortable using one. It’s the inexperienced divers and even some experienced divers that have no idea what a perfectly fitting BCD (BP/W or jacket BC) is supposed to feel like.

So, why all the fuss of one system vs another? It’s an apples to oranges comparison. While they are both BC’s and both will perform perfectly if fitted properly and used within their design strengths, it’s only the BP/W that can work in a larger number of differing dive situations. However, the vast majority of diving today is clearly in the wheelhouse of a jacket BC.

Good divers will not blame the gear, they simply adapt.

 

[fxrguy]

Well I'm just getting back into diving after a few years hiatus and have chosen to go the bp/w route mainly because I used to dive for years (1978-2000) with an old Seapro At-Pac. This was one of the precursors to the modern bp/w configurations. It had a hollow plastic backpack that was filled with lead shot to your desired weight and then the excess area was filled with marbles. There was a quick release latch on the bottom of the pack so you could dump your weights. Originally had only a hog harness which I loved but later "upgraded' to a comfort jacket that laced right on to the backplate. I hated the comfort jacket! I came upon this rig back in 78 used completely by accident as I had just got certified and wanted my own gear. I couldn't afford new stuff so I jumped at the chance to get this stuff. It was 6 or 7 years old when I bought it. I used it for so many years because it was modular and I could replace anything that wore out. Today I want that stream lined feeling I had with my old rig without the comfort jacket. Just want the hog harness again. I also just absolutely loved the trim I could achieve with the weights on my back rather then on my hips or waist. A lot of the people I used to dive with back in the day thought the At-Pac looked uncomfortable until I let them use it. Not everybody liked it but it won over more jacket style converts then it didn't. Back in those days you almost never saw another A-Pac because the industry was so dominated by manufacturers of jacket style BC's. They had successfully demonized the At-Pacs to the point that I think half the people I dove with that didn't know any better probably thought I'd be lucky if I made it back to the boat alive...LOL. You know the old "face down in the water at the surface" routine. I would have thought that old worn out line would have died out years ago but I'm still running into it every now and then. You would do yourself a favor to remember that most of that kind of BS is just marketing. How many people have you heard of that drowned at the surface because their BC held them face down? Jeez, I've been diving for 33 years and haven't heard of one yet. I'm sure though that when a diver does drown wearing a bp/w, they will be demonized yet again. I doubt that anyone who claims bp/w are dangerous wants to to a head count of diving fatalities just to see what bc they were using! Anyway, it's good to see bp/w systems getting the attention these days that I think they deserve. I'm not militant about using them and I would never criticize someone else's rig. I just ask the same courtesy from other divers that choose another style of bc. I'm just out there to have a good time and not have to explain myself. I have to admit though that I have always enjoyed seeing people's attitudes change that were so adamant about jacket bc's and bought into the "face down on the surface" propaganda. Hey, we are all out there just to get wet and have a good time right? Please don't criticize my bc and I won't go off on telling you how great I think it is. I mean getting wet is what it's all about right? No really I'm talken about scuba...:wink1:

 

[cool_hardware52]

My thoughts on this seeming endless debate.

BCDs come in many shapes and designs but they all do at a minimum, two things, help with your buoyancy control and hold your tank(s) in place. Some use a wraparound air cell and others utilize a single air cell. Some have a hard backplate, some have a plastic and still others use a fabric plate. Some have crotch straps, others don’t.

Virtually all designs will fit someone perfectly if adjusted properly. Jacket BC systems work perfectly well for most of the recreational diving but sadly, most of them were never adjusted or fitted properly to its owner.

A few people, based on their own body shape, will have a very difficult time using a jacket BC due to the adjustment limitations inherent in a jacket BC. The fitting of a jacket BC is more than just yank the straps until they are tight, but again, most shops don’t know how to adjust one properly and as a result, many jacket BC’s do not perform very well. Add to this, most of these people never realize the poor performance is due to the improper fitting, not the basic design. (If they even realize that it is performing poorly in the first place.)

A BP/W configuration is more flexible by design but if poorly adjusted, it will not perform any different than a poorly fitting jacket. Add to that, BP/W will be closer to a good fit, even if fitted poorly.

Here’s the rub. Most of the divers that use a BP/W are generally more experienced divers and know how to setup a harness and plate to fit properly. Experienced jacket divers also know how to adjust their setup and are perfectly comfortable using one. It’s the inexperienced divers and even some experienced divers that have no idea what a perfectly fitting BCD (BP/W or jacket BC) is supposed to feel like.

So, why all the fuss of one system vs another? It’s an apples to oranges comparison. While they are both BC’s and both will perform perfectly if fitted properly and used within their design strengths, it’s only the BP/W that can work in a larger number of differing dive situations. However, the vast majority of diving today is clearly in the wheelhouse of a jacket BC.

Good divers will not blame the gear, they simply adapt.

Do you have independently verified data from a double blind study to confirm & support all these opinions you present as facts?

I'm going to need notarized transcripts of all discussions you had with anybody involved in forming this opinion masquerading as fact.

Please also include relevant data of divers by body size and shape to support these opinions. Sample size, SD etc.

Submit all lab books, field notes etc.

Lastly how do we know good divers adapt? I suspect they are simply too embarrassed to admit they bought the wrong gear and are simply putting on a brave face.

I was going to suggest that you are lying about BP&W's but that's uncalled for so I'll just ask when you stopped beating your wife.



(Could you read this better if it was red? )




Tobin

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I am definitely implying that from a Basic Scuba Discussions forum perspective, a boat dive in Puget Sound when the air temps are in the high 20's and the water temps are in the high 40's is not really Basic Scuba.

If we just say that to be basic scuba at least 50% of the divers in the world would have tried it; what percentage of world wide divers have tried BP/W, dry suits, argon, all of the above and more on the same dive?

Peter said I had a "warped view of the dive world." Happy New Year!

So, just to be clear, the type of diving one does is directly related to how many dives one has? IE a person with 20 dives is a basic diver while someone with 1000+ can only do advanced dives?

Crap! I'm screwed as I don't have a lot of interest in advanced dives but I have no intention of quitting after "several hundred" dives.

So, just to be clear, "if we just say that to be basic scuba at least 50% of the divers in the world would have tried it; what percentage of world wide divers have tried BP/W, dry suits, argon, all of the above and more on the same dive?" is what I asked in the linked thread and part of what I quoted in this thread.

Just to be clear, nobody answered my question.

 

[Adobo]

Do you have independently verified data from a double blind study to confirm & support all these opinions you present as facts?

I'm going to need notarized transcripts of all discussions you had with anybody involved in forming this opinion masquerading as fact.

Please also include relevant data of divers by body size and shape to support these opinions. Sample size, SD etc.

Submit all lab books, field notes etc.

Lastly how do we know good divers adapt? I suspect they are simply too embarrassed to admit they bought the wrong gear and are simply putting on a brave face.

I was going to suggest that you are lying about BP&W's but that's uncalled for so I'll just ask when you stopped beating your wife.



(Could you read this better if it was red? )




Tobin

Good lord, Tobin. Next thing you'll be asking for is his birth certificate. His *original* birth certificate.

 

[Tortuga68]

Just to be clear, nobody answered my question

That's probably because nobody knows wtf you're on about