Warped Dive World Evolution - BP/W Subgroup Mindset

[Scott L]

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Your "top valid reasons" do expose your biases, and profound ignorance.

While I can obviously not contend that you would not stretch the truth even a little to make a point in a thread like this, without hearing the recordings of all your customer calls, I can say that your labeling of my list as "exposing my biases and profoundly ignorant" is itself profoundly ignorant with regards to what I have personally seen of BP/W users.

The vast majority of BP/W users I have encountered have fallen into at least one of the categories I list; most fall into at least two. I have a perspective, based on what gear is being used around me and based on what gear I saw being used in my dive travels to Florida a decade ago.

That said, I do not often inflict any of the opinions in my "list" on prospective BC buyers shopping for opinions here on SB, and when I do it is over qualified as not only my opinion, but also as the opinion of a warm water diver who dives in gear very similar to the gear used by the vast majority.

But with regards to anecdotal opinion stated as absolute fact, I am just going to continually point out when I see very, very opinionated people, or those evidently brainwashed by them, express their anecdotal opinions as absolute, unquestionable facts.

 

[Tortuga68]

 

[Sas]

While I can obviously not contend that you would not stretch the truth even a little to make a point in a thread like this, without hearing the recordings of all your customer calls, I can say that your labeling of my list as "exposing my biases and profoundly ignorant" is itself profoundly ignorant with regards to what I have personally seen of BP/W users.

I thought you said you hadn't seen many in Hawaii? You've used this as an argument before of why you see jacket BCs as fine.

The vast majority of BP/W users I have encountered have fallen into at least one of the categories I list; most fall into at least two. I have a perspective, based on what gear is being used around me and based on what gear I saw being used in my dive travels to Florida a decade ago.

So you make your opinions on what was used in Florida a *decade* ago and the small patch of turf you dive in now? Hmmm...

That said, I do not often inflict any of the opinions in my "list" on prospective BC But with regards to anecdotal opinion stated as absolute fact, I am just going to continually point out when I see very, very opinionated people, or those evidently brainwashed by them, express their anecdotal opinions as absolute, unquestionable facts.

What is the big deal if people recommend new divers BP/Ws with only their anecdotal opinion? That constitutes nearly all of the posts on SB recommending gear, not just BP/Ws.

You recommend things about BP/Ws when you haven't even tried one, like the draft being more and that some shore dives in Hawaii do not work with a BP/W... How would you even know? You haven't tried them out...

I am contending that the draft of a vest BC diver is less than the draft of a diver with inflation on the back.

 

[Sas]

 

[cool_hardware52]

While I can obviously not contend that you would not stretch the truth even a little to make a point in a thread like this, without hearing the recordings of all your customer calls, I can say that your labeling of my list as "exposing my biases and profoundly ignorant" is itself profoundly ignorant with regards to what I have personally seen of BP/W users.

Nice. You ask for facts, not opinion, yet when presented with facts, from a genuine expert, you try to suggest they are lying. Typical halemano

The vast majority of BP/W users I have encountered have fallen into at least one of the categories I list; most fall into at least two. I have a perspective, based on what gear is being used around me and based on what gear I saw being used in my dive travels to Florida a decade ago.

News flash. It's 2011 and your little window on diving doesn't reflect worldwide trends. That is a display of ignorance and arrogance.

BTW, do the BP&W users you encounter actually tell you that they dive a back plate because:

They plan to "go tech"?

Dive a Drysuit at home?

Are physically huge?

Have Plans for Doubles?

I know I don't ever feel the need to explain my gear choices to the dive operators I encounter. How exactly does that topic arise?

Tobin

 

[Kern]

I'm thinking about having an opinion. Of course, first I'll have to decide if i'm really thinking or just imagining it. Once I'v decided it is a real thought that I'm actually having, & is therefore an opinion I am allowed to post , it's going to be, "some people have been listening to too many old rock & roll albums played backwards, & we all know what that can lead to."

PS. I think I was just imagining my earlier post, so probably shouldn't have posted it.

 

[Splitlip]

I'll bet the SB discussions nowadays are exactly the same as they were 8-9 years ago.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/bu...ystems/40415-back-inflate-bc-vs-bp-wings.html

Edit: and to add: Zeagle today manufactures plates and wings as do Aqualung (Apeks), Oceanic (Hollis) and another big player in the Jacket BCD business will be introducing one in the future.

 

[knowone]

A non rigid tank user interface is optimal for inclement close to shore diving.

All equipment is user dependant and pretty much works everywhere
as the size of the diver governs into which crevice one can squeeze.

There are many that got tricked themselves into believing H will make them
s:goingdown:


It is a travesty that extent of truths is governed by position
the time of post or consumption of intoxicating substances

In water ability has less to do with No of dives than No of posts
spent out of the water.

As with everything, listening is the key, with an early start best.

Anticipating the clunk of the tank and utilising the inertia to pirouette
is fun.

Go watch a fish.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Since this thread is no longer going to stay on topic, no matter how hard I try to nudge it back towards the two real thread topics I have stated over and over, I guess we will just descend into the trenches and slug it out.

If you can't attack the message, by all means attack the messenger.

I think the top valid reasons someone should consider a BP/W are a strong desire to eventually go tech, cold water diving necessitating a Dry Suit, someone really big and someone wanting to use doubles. By typing I think, I qualify it so that it is obviously my opinion. That way if you think differently, I am not implying that your thoughts are inferior.

A small percentage of our prospective buyers intend to "go tech", most BP&W sold today will never see a set of doubles. I query my prospective buyers pretty closely about their future plans.

So, since you query your prospective buyers pretty closely, you could tell us exactly what percentage of all prospective BP/W shoppers who have contacted you intend to sometime in the future go tech?

Most our prospective buyers are using wetsuits and a significant percentage buy BP&W's expressly for warm water travel.

Well, the buoyancy and Michelin Man characteristics of California wet suit divers is not far from the reason I included dry suit, and dry suits are pretty dang expensive so considering that one reason for choosing a NEW BP/W over a NEW Vest BC might be expense, I can see many purchasers now using wet suits, but surely many cold water wet suit divers would go dry suit if and when they can afford to?

So, since you query your prospective buyers pretty closely, you could tell us exactly what percentage of all prospective BP/W shoppers who have contacted you intend to only dive BP/W in warm water? How about telling us exactly what percentage of all your prospective BP/W shoppers that are looking to purchase BP/W for warm water travel also dive cold locally in BP/W?

We offer 5 sizes of BPs. We sell far more medium back plates than all other sizes combined.

So, since you query your prospective buyers pretty closely, you could tell us exactly what percentage of all prospective BP/W shoppers who have contacted you are BIG?

Perhaps your not very good at closing the sale with the BIG shoppers and they are buying from another BP/W source?

Most Back Plates sold today will never see a set of doubles. Single wings out sell doubles wings 20:1

OK, so are you saying that YOUR single wing sales are 20:1 vs double wings or are you saying that worldwide single wing sales are 20:1 vs doubles wings?

So, since you query your prospective buyers pretty closely, you could tell us exactly what percentage of all prospective BP/W shoppers who have contacted you are looking for just a single wing? How about telling us exactly what percentage of all your prospective BP/W shoppers that are looking to purchase a single wing already have a doubles wing and already dive a BP/W?

Perhaps your not very good at closing the sale on doubles wings and they are buying from another doubles wing source?

Your "top valid reasons" do expose your biases, and profound ignorance.

My responses aren't the speculation of an "Internet Expert" They aren't unsupported opinion either. They are the observations of a professional who makes their daily living designing, manufacturing and selling BP&W's worldwide.

I think this post, from someone who is both a paying advertiser on ScubaBoard and a friend of many ScubaBoard Staff, sounds amazingly similar to the content of Sport Diver and Scuba Diving magazines with regards to unbiased dive gear advise.

Tobin

While I can obviously not contend that you would not stretch the truth even a little to make a point in a thread like this, without hearing the recordings of all your customer calls, I can say that your labeling of my list as "exposing my biases and profoundly ignorant" is itself profoundly ignorant with regards to what I have personally seen of BP/W users.

The vast majority of BP/W users I have encountered have fallen into at least one of the categories I list; most fall into at least two. I have a perspective, based on what gear is being used around me and based on what gear I saw being used in my dive travels to Florida a decade ago.

The underlined portions of my above quoted post are what I will talk about now. Your wording of the previous post by you, where you say MY "top valid reasons" do expose MY biases, and profound ignorance, seems to be more of an attack on the messenger than an attack on the message.

So, since you query your prospective buyers pretty closely, you could tell us exactly what percentage of all prospective BP/W shoppers who have contacted you fall into at least one of the categories in my list? How about telling us exactly what percentage of all prospective BP/W shoppers who have contacted you fall into at least two of the categories in my list?

Nice. You ask for facts, not opinion, yet when presented with facts, from a genuine expert, you try to suggest they are lying. Typical halemano

Even though I feel that few will read this post far enough to see this, I will again point out the two topics of this thread.....

The topic is what are the reason BP/W divers made the change to BP/W? This thread is not about me, it is about reasons people chose to dive with BP/W.

An alternate concept in the thread is BP/W proponents stating their anecdotal opinion as if it were fact when advising people who are seeking information with which to make a decision.

Tobin, are you saying that all these "statistics" (is that the same as fact?) you speak of are reflective of the reasons divers FIRST decided to go BP/W? Are you somehow trying to infer that local BP/W divers who are looking for a travel rig, or that tech divers who already have doubles wings but are looking for a new single wing, are posting on SB asking if they should chose a VEST or a BP/W?