Virginian diver dead at 190 feet - Roaring River State Park, Missouri

[PirateFoxy]

What????? This has nothing to do with Gus.

And why no gas change verification?

My question was very simple, why was the diluent not asked and verified safe? Or are buddy checked not done?

Gus had an incident with gas while diving with the same team at the same site, so information about his incident could hint at procedural or habitual issues with the team systems. (Or it could not. But I assume that's why it's being mentioned here - if we know there was no check done in his case, that suggests the possibility that they were not done in all cases, though how frequent that is we wouldn't be able to tell from once incident.)

 

[formernuke]

Gus had an incident with gas while diving with the same team at the same site, so information about his incident could hint at procedural or habitual issues with the team systems. (Or it could not. But I assume that's why it's being mentioned here - if we know there was no check done in his case, that suggests the possibility that they were not done in all cases, though how frequent that is we wouldn't be able to tell from once incident.)

Gus plugged in the wrong tank is my understanding of that incident but did have the proper one on him.

In this incident the guy was carrying a unsafe diluent for planned depth.

 

[berndo]

Gus plugged in the wrong tank is my understanding of that incident but did have the proper one on him.

I have no idea why Gus brought air on that dive to begin with. It's an odd set up they were diving.
I also don't understand how the configuration of the SW vs Spirit made him plug in the wrong gas. Usually you only have one Dil MAV. The position of the MAV doesn't really have an impact on what gas you're plugging in.

 

[formernuke]

I'm not familiar with the SW or the dive plan so I can't say why he brought what he brought. I also consider it a unrelated incident.

 

[berndo]

I'm not familiar with the SW or the dive plan so I can't say why he brought what he brought. I also consider it a unrelated incident.

Well, same cave, same depth range, same project, same rig, almost same gas, kinda same issue. Both probably super hammered, one toxes one doesn't. I wasn't there, so what do I know, but listening to Gus and than reading the accident report... 'unlrelated' is not the word that comes to mind.

 

[grantctobin]

And

I have no idea why Gus brought air on that dive to begin with. It's an odd set up they were diving.
I also don't understand how the configuration of the SW vs Spirit made him plug in the wrong gas. Usually you only have one Dil MAV. The position of the MAV doesn't really have an impact on what gas you're plugging in.

It is deeply unsurprising unfortunately. Mike was attempting to help Gus get geared up (I respect it can be a team effort with some divers), found that Gus left bottle dil connection hose would not reach across to the MAV, and then Gus elected to use air and started the dive intending to inhale diluent off of his necklaced 16/40 bottle and exhale into the loop. It wasn't an "accident," as Gus describes. The dive was started by using air on the right bottle in order to avoid using a suit gas bottle and because "we do this all the time and know how to dive this cave." This might lead one to ask what mix was in the long hose on Gus other side, which would appear to be air for a >200' dive in an overhead environment. DiveTalk may have since deleted the posts that Mike made in the Facebook thread regarding this specific incident.

I've paused responding to this thread out of respect for Eric and his other friends, but these incidents are IMO quite related.

 

[berndo]

... intending to inhale diluent off of his necklaced 16/40 bottle and exhale into the loop.

Wait, what?

That makes Gus's story even more weird. In the video he said didn't know why his 02 was rising but if he plugged the air in deliberately, he would have known what the issues was straight away.

This might lead one to ask what mix was in the long hose on Gus other side, which was in fact air for a >200' dive in an overhead environment.

I saw the posts on fb. That's not what I took from it.
If true, it's nuts.

 

[DOBY]

Gus was using 16/40 in his left bailout bottle with a second stage on a bungee around his neck, and air in his right bailout bottle with a second stage on a 7’ hose. Mike Y. posted on FB that air was in the right bottle so it could be used for dry suit inflation and deco.

I don't know what Gus' setup was, but one common Sidewinder setup is to have a high flow QC6 quick disconnect on the right bailout bottle that feed the MAV/ADV & a standard low pressure QD that feeds the drysuit; and a standard lp QD on the left bailout bottle to feed the wing. Gus stated in a DiveTalk video that he intentionally plugged the right bottle (air) quick disconnect into the MAV that fed the loop, and it wasn’t a mistake. But he goes no to state it was the first-time diving trimix on his Sidewinder and he didn’t realize air (right tank) was feeding the loop as the left bottle connects to the MAV and feds the loop on his Sprit CCR which he normally dives on trimx.

Would be interesting to know if his left bailout bottle also had a QC6 quick disconnect, and he thought he actually plugged in the left tank. Or if the left tank Dil QC6 was too short to reach the MAV, so the right tank was plugged in knowing it would be a “hot”, non-helium Dil. Really doesn’t matter, as there’s nothing new to learn about intentionally using a hot, low helium Dil well below its MOD (Eric’s incident and possibly Gus’).

But…. there might be something to learn, or at least think about, to maybe prevent similar incidents when using off board diluent in a SM CCR configuration while cave diving, if Gus’ incident was un-intentional. Such as discussing the pros and cons of using different mixes (i.e. deep helium mix on left / shallow non helium/high O2 deco mix on right) just to have a suitable dry suit (DS) gas source.

The “Pros” is suitable DS gas without adding a separate DS bottle.

The “Cons” are (1) one of the best features of the Sidewinder is - it’s a true SM rebreather that’s easily adapts to a standard open circuit (OC) SM rig. Using two different mixes sort of complicates things and negates basic learned OC SM training/muscle memory if bailing out (i.e., alternate breathing from each tank, gas sharing, etc.). OC SM muscle memory and confidence knowing you have 2 backup regs might lower stress in a bailout situation or prevent staying on the loop longer than you should. I know it did the two times I had to BO far back in a cave – yes, my fault and not the CCR’s. (2) Muscle memory might lead to a wrong gas getting plugged in for off board Dil if diving with two different mixes (possible Gus’ incident). And (3) donating a 7ft long hose from the right tank (standard OC SM rig) is not an option if that tank doesn’t have a suitable bottom mix, but rather a low helium or high oxygen mix.

I was trained to have the same mix in each SM tanks in an OC or CCR SM configuration and carry independent deco bottles with regulators pressurized but valves closed to help prevent wrong gas mix-ups. Using a SM CCR setup with the same bottom mix in both low-pressure steel SM tanks, with high oxygen / low helium deco gases in dedicated aluminum deco cylinders, and just add a small aluminum DS bottle would be the better and safer option IMHO.

 

[Nitrogenius]

What????? This has nothing to do with Gus.

And why no gas change verification?

Listen to it yourself and make up your mind:
starting at about 28 min in

Gus had an incident with gas while diving with the same team at the same site, so information about his incident could hint at procedural or habitual issues with the team systems. (Or it could not. But I assume that's why it's being mentioned here - if we know there was no check done in his case, that suggests the possibility that they were not done in all cases, though how frequent that is we wouldn't be able to tell from once incident.)

exactly!

Gus plugged in the wrong tank is my understanding of that incident but did have the proper one on him.

In this incident the guy was carrying a unsafe diluent for planned depth.

Very related though in my opinion and I brought it up as example that also he did not switch to any of the staged BO tanks (despite going to his onbord BO at all)

I'm not familiar with the SW or the dive plan so I can't say why he brought what he brought. I also consider it a unrelated incident.

if we don't intent to learn from this: Sure just mark it unrelated incidents. If we want to have some valuable takeaways one has to assume there is some connection between those incidents. Starting with using a non helium dil to begin with, but thanks to grantctobin there seems to be some light shed on why there would be such mixes used to begin with.

The dive was started by using air on the right bottle in order to avoid using a suit gas bottle and because "we do this all the time and know how to dive this cave."

Thanks for posting! Now this makes a lot more sense on why there would be any non He mix Dils used at all. I would have never thought of such a use as I would think a suit gas bottle would be able to be fitted (and then with even better gas than air) but yes ok that's why the use of non He in the first place!

I've paused responding to this thread out of respect for Eric and his other friends, but these incidents are IMO quite related.

Makes a lot of sense as well. Thanks for shanging your mind though and yes I agree the incidents (and hints to the ongoing practises) seem very very related.
So what do you make of the thought that the use of the stage tanks might have been (sub)consciously ruled out?

 

[Manatee Diver]

Between Gus's near miss and Eric's death I am hoping that in the off season that they are taking a step back and reconsidering all their SOPs and culture. And hopefully approaching next season as a safer stronger team. So they never have to deal with another preventable death as a team.