Virginian diver dead at 190 feet - Roaring River State Park, Missouri

[Nitrogenius]

That may be one of those Obvious Things that it's worth pointing out regularly anyway, though, to keep them fresh in people's minds as A Resource To Be Used. Mostly because when things start to go wrong people can sometimes have weird ideas. (Like "oh, I'm not doing as difficult a dive, I should be able to solve this problem without resorting to the bail out tanks, other divers are doing more" kind of internal 'logic'.)

Just something along the lines of "as a reminder, bail out tanks are located here, here, and here. Don't hesitate to use one, it's a lot easily to replace a tank than a diver" or whatever.

Thanks! exactly!

 

[PirateFoxy]

Thanks! exactly!

I'd regard it as a Human Factors thing. It seems to be important to remind people about things that seem like they would be obvious, to help limit 'holes' in the cheese, as it were.

 

[Trouts]

The NSS-CDS accident report indicates the deceased dive computers were set to a close circuit gas of 24/00. However, it doesn’t go into any more detail about if, or what, any OC bailout gases were entered in the computers.

It would be interesting to know if the staged bailout mixes were programmed into the computers. As would think it would be a requirement of every team member, no matter the task, to have them in their computer(s) in case they’re needed.

At the beginning of the project, team members were told what the standard safety gases would be and to program our computers accordingly. Safety bottles were clearly marked with contents and MOD, and all team members had the training, experience, and permission to use them in an emergency. On "push days" divers working at depth, but not part of the deep team also put in place additional safety bottles beyond those calculated as sufficient to get the deep team out in case they needed them. From the perspective of a support diver, I believe it is highly unlikely that reluctance to make use of a safety bottle contributed to the accident.

Gayle Orner

 

[steinbil]

At the beginning of the project, team members were told what the standard safety gases would be and to program our computers accordingly. Safety bottles were clearly marked with contents and MOD, and all team members had the training, experience, and permission to use them in an emergency. On "push days" divers working at depth, but not part of the deep team also put in place additional safety bottles beyond those calculated as sufficient to get the deep team out in case they needed them. From the perspective of a support diver, I believe it is highly unlikely that reluctance to make use of a safety bottle contributed to the accident.

Gayle Orner

Thanks for chiming in. Good to hear from someone on the team. Do you have any idea how it could make sense for the diver to enter the water with the non-standard gas?

 

[formernuke]

So as someone on the team. Are buddy checks including gas mix and proper PPO2 included in safety brief and buddy checks?

Don't get me wrong it is the divers responsibility but also buddy checks exist for a reason.

 

[DOBY]

At the beginning of the project, team members were told what the standard safety gases would be and to program our computers accordingly. Safety bottles were clearly marked with contents and MOD, and all team members had the training, experience, and permission to use them in an emergency. On "push days" divers working at depth, but not part of the deep team also put in place additional safety bottles beyond those calculated as sufficient to get the deep team out in case they needed them. From the perspective of a support diver, I believe it is highly unlikely that reluctance to make use of a safety bottle contributed to the accident.

Gayle Orner

I agree, safety bottles had nothing directly to do with the accident and just side track the root cause (i.e. taking a hot, non Helium Dil mix beyond it’s MOD).

Was just trying to wrap my mind around what pre-dive planning or checks were in place for support dives. And wondered if knowing staged BO gases were programmed in computers might help understand the thought process/planning. As planning a dive to 190 feet on EAN24 completely goes against “all team members had the training, experience”…..). Just makes no sense.

 

[Nitrogenius]

At the beginning of the project, team members were told what the standard safety gases would be and to program our computers accordingly. Safety bottles were clearly marked with contents and MOD, and all team members had the training, experience, and permission to use them in an emergency. On "push days" divers working at depth, but not part of the deep team also put in place additional safety bottles beyond those calculated as sufficient to get the deep team out in case they needed them. From the perspective of a support diver, I believe it is highly unlikely that reluctance to make use of a safety bottle contributed to the accident.

Gayle Orner

Thanks for clarifying on the briefings in the beginning of the project. That clarifies a lot. I would yet not be too fast to rule out reluctancy to use such gas though due to the psychological implication especially on the younger members on the team. There is a lot of implied peer pressure on not wanting to screw up and already the mere use of a bailout gas might have been perceived as screwing up. One simply is not in one others head. Then narcosis comes on top of the decision making etc. I mean even Gus stated in the podcast that bailing out did not even occur to him at his incident and in comparison I think he is a much more experienced diver..
In order to counter such effects as highlighted by Pirate it might help to emphaisze the "okayness" of using those team bailouts and that Bailing out actually constitues a smart and absolutely approriate choice being in any kind of trouble during a dive.
So that might be a good take away for the future carrying out similar projects.

Even outside of such a project bailing out always seems to have some sort of stigma, yet even more when touching joint ressources.

So as someone on the team. Are buddy checks including gas mix and proper PPO2 included in safety brief and buddy checks?

The incident resport of Gus on their Podcast suggests on his incident suggest there likely has not been a gas change buddy verification protocol or at least it sound like no buddy verification of the plugged gas has been done at his dive.

I agree, safety bottles had nothing directly to do with the accident and just side track the root cause (i.e. taking a hot, non Helium Dil mix beyond it’s MOD).

I agree not directly, but I can't help the suspicion that it had to do with it indirectly especially due to the use of hot non helium mixes far beyond best practises MOD.

As planning a dive to 190 feet on EAN24 completely goes against “all team members had the training, experience”…..). Just makes no sense.

I don't think that is necessarliy speaking against that, but very well is simply not best practises and nowhere taught is such manner as far as I am aware of.
You would see this more frequently in the past when dives like that would be excecuted on OC. Diving on a non He mix to 190 feet is somewhat outdated, but has been done. It all comes down to the old Deep air debates. On OC I have been somewhat a proponent of deep air depending on overall logistics and considering all circumstances. I still think such a dive can be exceuted considerably safe, especially given team Bailout tanks and such emergency gases being available etc. Just doing that on CCRs strikes a bit odd..

 

[berndo]

I mean even Gus stated in the podcast that bailing out did not even occur to him at his incident and in comparison I think he is a much more experienced diver..

I think Gus has only been diving and cave diving for a few years. They talked about it at some point on the channel.

 

[Manatee Diver]

I think Gus has only been diving and cave diving for a few years. They talked about it at some point on the channel.

IIRC Late 2019 is when he finished full cave.

 

[formernuke]

The incident resport of Gus on their Podcast suggests on his incident suggest there likely has not been a gas change buddy verification protocol or at least it sound like no buddy verification of the plugged gas has been done at his dive.

What????? This has nothing to do with Gus.

And why no gas change verification?

My question was very simple, why was the diluent not asked and verified safe? Or are buddy checked not done?