Virginian diver dead at 190 feet - Roaring River State Park, Missouri

[DiveTalkGus]

I appreciate all your feedback on this thread and those who took the time to try to understand what happened to Eric and what happened during my incident back in August.

I don't want to take attention away from Eric Hahn. Eric was an amazing diver and overall great guy to be around. I spoke to Eric for hours and hours about all kinds of topics, not just diving, the guy was just an overall great human being. I will definitely miss him and hate that the incident I had didn't stop this tragedy from happening.

I'm also not going to get defensive and argue whether I have "nearly enough experience to dive that cave", all I can say is that not only I felt prepared for my dive, but also every single team member literally trusts their life on each one of us so no one would've dived that day if they felt I was a liability just like I wouldn't have dived if I felt anyone else in the team was a liability. I realize this doesn't change your mind if you feel that 2 years of cave diving and full trimix diving experience is "not enough" to dive at Roaring River, that's certainly your opinion and I'm not going to argue.

The incident I had was due to how my Sidewinder used to be connected to the bailout tanks. As several people mentioned here my Spirit's DIL connection is on the left (it's actually able to connect on both sides but I connect on the left since my deep gas is on the left) and the Sidewinder was only able to be connected on the right. When we dive in caves that are at a certain depth for the most part (this of Ginnie or Little River, etc.) both tanks have the same mix. I've said multiple times that my preferred mix is 30/30. This was my first time diving Trimix in a cave with the Sidewinder (I had previously dived at Eagle's Nest with my Spirit and had zero issues).

Connecting my DIL to the Air tank was a major oversight from my part, and as I mentioned in the video it won't happen again, not just because the Sidewinder was modified so -like my Spirit- it can be connected on either side if needed, but also because this incident taught me a valuable lesson.

There was another question as to "why air?". Valid question.

Air was my "Shallow gas", typically I would've had EAN50 on the right instead of air, but there were several AL80s staged at 70 feet, Air could be used at any part of the dive whereas EAN50 is only safe 70 feet and shallower, so the idea was, if I bailed out to Trimix, and for some crazy insane reason I could only go from 215 (my planned max depth for the dive) to like 160 or whatever, I could go to Air and make it to 70 where the EAN50s were staged (although they had other tanks staged at various depths). So having Air on the right tank - for this particular dive - was actually safer than EAN50. It wasn't about saving money, or being lazy, or reckless...there is a why behind the how.

So if I had a catastrophic CCR failure at 215, my two cave filled LP50s would be plenty to get me back to the dozens of tanks staged throughout the cave, you can actually see them in our video.

Thank you everyone who watches the channel, I understand that not everyone likes our content or thinks we are an asset to the scuba industry, but we'll continue to promote diving with the world from the perspective of regular average divers, we are definitely not "elite divers" that never make mistakes, we look up to people like that. And no matter how big the channel will get, you won't find either one of us on some high horse telling everyone they don't know what they are doing or they should do things differently, the best I can do is to share what I did, and why I did it, even when it's wrong. I always tell people that if you want "perfection" then don't watch our channel.

 

[lostsheep]

I feel like we need to split this thread…

Thanks for chiming in @DiveTalkGus , it takes cajones.

That said I don’t agree with your gas volumes or choices at all. Sure air is safer than 50%…obviously. But you know what’s even safer then that ? Air with 35% helium in it. WRT volume, no it’s not enough gas. A CO2 hit at 220 could have you burn through that first deep mix in 5 minutes. Is it safe to assume you could immediately begin ascending? Can you actually ascend quickly due to silt out, lost line, or anything else? burn through that first lp50 and then switch to a high p02 (air) while breathing hard and I suspect you would Ox tox rapidly.

You do your thing but I’d carry bigger tanks with matching mixes appropriate to the depth. I really can’t think of any situation where air is best except in the swimming pool. I’m sure someone will correct me on that last one.

 

[Manatee Diver]

I don't want to take attention away from Eric Hahn. Eric was an amazing diver and overall great guy to be around. I spoke to Eric for hours and hours about all kinds of topics, not just diving, the guy was just an overall great human being. I will definitely miss him and hate that the incident I had didn't stop this tragedy from happening.

Discussing your near miss isn't meant to take away attention from Eric's death, but when the same team and equipment has two oxtox accidents two months apart, we want to see what went wrong, and see if there is a pattern with Eric's accident once that report is released. Do they not have anything in common at all, is it just two people having a similar accident, is it a local SOP issue, or is it a general training issue?

But I am with @lostsheep if you concern was having a mix that can take you all the way from hypoxic to the surface 21/35 would make more sense. And you might have been able to more effectively dealt with your higher PPO2, instead of what you make it sound like dumb luck that your narcosis had you go look for your buddy for approval.

BTW what was your trimix dil? I can guess but it would be better to get an exact number.

 

[DiveTalkGus]

Discussing your near miss isn't meant to take away attention from Eric's death, but when the same team and equipment has two oxtox accidents two months apart, we want to see what went wrong, and see if there is a pattern with Eric's accident once that report is released. Do they not have anything in common at all, is it just two people having a similar accident, is it a local SOP issue, or is it a general training issue?

But I am with @lostsheep if you concern was having a mix that can take you all the way from hypoxic to the surface 21/35 would make more sense. And you might have been able to more effectively dealt with your higher PPO2, instead of what you make it sound like dumb luck that your narcosis had you go look for your buddy for approval.

BTW what was your trimix dil? I can guess but it would be better to get an exact number.

My Trimix was 16/40. My necklace regulator was connected to my Trimix, I mentioned in the video that had I bailed out I would've been fine because I would've bailed out to trimix. At max depth my Trimix PO2 would've been 1.1.

@lostsheep, I won't correct you, you do your thing, carry 4 tanks for a 215 ft dive if you want, if you think that makes you a safer diver then go ahead. Ultimately, like I said, I don't tell people what to do, I do what's right for me and stay away from pretending I know more than everyone else, you seem to be okay with telling others what to do so yes like you said "you do your thing"

 

[SlugLife]

Connecting my DIL to the Air tank was a major oversight from my part, and as I mentioned in the video it won't happen again, not just because the Sidewinder was modified so -like my Spirit- it can be connected on either side if needed, but also because this incident taught me a valuable lesson.

Generally, the Accidents and Incidents section is more blame-free and interested in better understanding incidents, learning from them, and avoiding them. Blamestorming and being hyper-critical of specific individuals is perhaps less common.

If you have any specific lessons or suggestions you learned from the incident, feel free to share.

 

[stuartv]

Air was my "Shallow gas", typically I would've had EAN50 on the right instead of air, but there were several AL80s staged at 70 feet, Air could be used at any part of the dive whereas EAN50 is only safe 70 feet and shallower, so the idea was, if I bailed out to Trimix, and for some crazy insane reason I could only go from 215 (my planned max depth for the dive) to like 160 or whatever, I could go to Air and make it to 70 where the EAN50s were staged (although they had other tanks staged at various depths). So having Air on the right tank - for this particular dive - was actually safer than EAN50. It wasn't about saving money, or being lazy, or reckless...there is a why behind the how.

I don't know about your training, but my CCR training was to always keep my END to 100 - or less. That doesn't just apply to being on the loop. It applies to BO gases, as well, because the whole point is that you need to be more clearheaded when you're diving a CCR than you really NEED if you're just diving OC. Something that still applies if you're in a situation that requires going to bail out.

Regardless, a contingency plan for emergencies (e.g. you bailed to your trimix, burned through all that before you got to 70', so then switched to your other gas) that involves switching to Air at 160' (or possibly even at 215?) still seems like a not-thoughtful choice. If it was not about saving money, and if trimix was available, why would you NOT choose a gas with a much lower END for that?

Is there something about the situation/environment that assured you that, if you could not get to 70' in time, you knew that you would not be stuck at 215 and you would definitely be able to get to at least 160? Again, it's sort of moot as switching to Air at 160 is still an END of 160, which I personally would not feel safe doing (because of narcosis, irrespective of any gas density or oxtox concerns).

 

[DiveTalkGus]

Regardless, a contingency plan for emergencies (e.g. you bailed to your trimix, burned through all that before you got to 70', so then switched to your other gas) that involves switching to Air at 160' (or possibly even at 215?) still seems like a not-thoughtful choice. If it was not about saving money, and if trimix was available, why would you NOT choose a gas with a much lower END for that?

You should google the map of Roaring River, maybe that will give you some context and tones down the nonsense.

 

[keylargojim]

You should google the map of Roaring River, maybe that will give you some context and tones down the nonsense.

Gus, who was your Ccr Trimix instructor? Just curious here.

 

[Boarderguy]

I

Gus, who was your Ccr Trimix instructor? Just curious here.

I think it was dive and podcast buddy, Woody.

 

[lostsheep]

@lostsheep, I won't correct you, you do your thing, carry 4 tanks for a 215 ft dive if you want, if you think that makes you a safer diver then go ahead. Ultimately, like I said, I don't tell people what to do, I do what's right for me and stay away from pretending I know more than everyone else, you seem to be okay with telling others what to do so yes like you said "you do your thing"

You should google the map of Roaring River, maybe that will give you some context and tones down the nonsense.

Oh @DiveTalkGus , I saw your flippant and dismissive quip this morning and wanted to respond but I was on my way to go diving and decided my retort really needed a proper keyboard.

I was sincere when I thanked you for coming on here; we rarely get to hear from those we endlessly speculate on. You see, by us endlessly speculating, critiquing, lurking, or otherwise wasting time on forums, we explore many different avenues and ultimately, hopefully, we learn something.

I honestly believe the banter and critiquing one another creates the "Just Culture" thing; getting offended by critique is antithetical to just culture and detrimental to the dive community as a whole.

With respect to nonsense. You know, the surprise isn't that non sense comes from me, the surprise is that I occasionally get something right. Throw enough crap at the wall and eventually something will stick.

Now, if I have said something that is inaccurate or perhaps didn't take into account some pertinent information then I am listening.

No, seriously, PLEASE CORRECT ME. I am pretty sure the vast majority of us here are rationale adults and if you can make a compelling argument I am sure all of us will change our minds. Hey, we are listening. I don't think you can make a compelling argument in this instance nor do I think you even see the value in doing so based off of previous remarks.

I have no idea where you came up with the 4 tank accusation. I believe I said, "I'd carry bigger tanks with matching mixes appropriate to the depth."

While the suggestion may have been implicit, no where did I tell you what to do; I literally used the pronoun "I" to describe a course of action. Explicitly I told you to do you.

And the last bolded parts...okay wow. Dude, you literally have a show where you talk about diving...what's it called again? DIVETALK? You don't tell people what to do? Are you F*&&%ing kidding me? You don't pretend you know more than everyone else? Are you F*&%%ing kidding me?

The really scary thing here is that the vast majority of your followers can't see through the Youtube circle stroke fest and a lot of them interpret what you say as gospel. Doesn't matter if any of us like it, for better or worse, people look up to you and they listen to you.

I can think of no greater transgression than someone in your position not to take that role model position more seriously and to set a better example than you have in your video, in your postings here, and in your response to criticism.

Shame on you.