VIP Stickers & o2 cleaning

[Topbodz]

you should find some to give you the psi course. it is worth the money. i just completed my recert last month. things hve changed a bit over the 3 tears since i was originally certed. in many areas the psi/pci folks take the most concervitive position on many things. for instance.

thou shalt not over fill tanks. regs say do not overfill past working presure at sea level and i think 60 degrees . so if it is 90 degrees you can fill to working presure plus apx. 150# for the temp offset. not allowed for psi. must be concervitive. makes one wokder why the burst disk for. they even have the math to prove there is no appreciative gain in over filling.;

I just did get certified with PSI, in VIP, O2 cleaning & Valve service. I agree that according most agency, have a low (>23.5%) o2 cleaning threshold (CGA 23.5%, US navy 25%, Catalina 23.5%, Luxfer 23.5%, PSI 23.5%, and OSHA 40%....)
but I would bet that most shops still use the 40% rule... and would fill any old tank using membrane or Nitrox stick filling....

the point being Why do Stickers have a "Cleaned up to 40%" & a cleaned for o2 service? I fully understand the o2 part...
but how do they clean for up to only 40%? do they do a half ass cleaning job.. lol or do they not clean at all and just call it cleaned for premix up to 40%.

According to the 40% rule, my understanding is that any old tank good enough for air, is good enough for a 40% EAN mix Keeping in mind that it cannot be filled using partial pressure....

Also I can appreciate that using Hyperfiltered or Oxygen Compatible Air is a good practice, but in reality does it really matter, since the tank & valve are good to 40% from the factory and DO NOT even have Viton O rings...

 

[NAM001]

yes i would agree with you. clean enough for air good enough for 40%. perhaps good for 40% really means good for hyperfiltered
air. perhaps it is written that way for the literalists that would say its only clean for air and not nitrox.....
also the thing about nitrox fills using hyper air so the hyperair use maintains eligibility for nitrox as air can be crade d i think for breathing. i think grade c is too oily to breath but good for air tools. society is loaded with one rule fits all. good to hear you are psi certed. i rarely do others tanks i have enough of my own thae the savings pays for the course.

the valve thing not hahving viton rings... i have seenthis and whenn you buy a valve you have to get a o2 version of the valve. they should sell them al that wday. maybe they dont because the vitons breakdown too quick as apposed to the regular air versions.

every one looks after the stupid at the expence of common sence. remember the warnings on superman costumes for halloween. this cape does not allow the wearer top fly. do not attempt to fly.

got to go great discussion. and no one said i was going to die from my opinions.... thanks

I just did get certified with PSI, in VIP, O2 cleaning & Valve service. I agree that according most agency, have a low (>23.5%) o2 cleaning threshold (CGA 23.5%, US navy 25%, Catalina 23.5%, Luxfer 23.5%, PSI 23.5%, and OSHA 40%....)
but I would bet that most shops still use the 40% rule... and would fill any old tank using membrane or Nitrox stick filling....

the point being Why do Stickers have a "Cleaned up to 40%" & a cleaned for o2 service? I fully understand the o2 part...
but how do they clean for up to only 40%? do they do a half ass cleaning job.. lol or do they not clean at all and just call it cleaned for premix up to 40%.

According to the 40% rule, my understanding is that any old tank good enough for air, is good enough for a 40% EAN mix Keeping in mind that it cannot be filled using partial pressure....

Also I can appreciate that using Hyperfiltered or Oxygen Compatible Air is a good practice, but in reality does it really matter, since the tank & valve are good to 40% from the factory and DO NOT even have Viton O rings...

 

[NAM001]

there was as much fight about that as there is about over filling tanks, and having a permit to transport scuba tanks. the latter is really crazy.

I just would like to point out one small thing. The 40% O2 cleaning "rule" that a lot of shops quote acctually come from a older OSHA regulation for the commerical dive industry and not the recreational. It states that any equipment used in commercial operation be cleaned when it is exposed to O2 percentages above 40%. This has been bastardized for the recreational industry by shops for many years. In fact, a lot of government organizations (NOAA, NASA, US Navy) and private enterprised (CGA) recomend O2 cleaning at lower precentages than this.

 

[Leadking]

No body got it right yet. It's about liability. You can clean the tank and valve and put in oxygen compatible components BUT the big issue is adiabatic testing of the valve. While most valve manufacturers have tested to 40% pre-mix, to the best of my knowledge, no one has tested to 100%. In discussions I've had with them, their argument is once it leaves their possession, they can no longer state oxygen clean. Look at any Band-Aid wrapper, it says it's sterile until you open it. The valve manufacturers state the water environment by its very nature is not oxygen clean. No one can claim 100% oxygen clean until it meets CGA standards.

 

[NAM001]

Under that same premis. you are not o2 clean once the tank leaves the o2 clean room it was cleaned in. Touch the valve and you contanimate it. Kind of extreem inknow but, it is true. No cleaning is ment to make anything "clean" cleaning only attempts to rid the item on the majority of hazard contaminates. No one can get all the hydrocarbons out of a tank or valve. Even if you could you would contaminate it once you put a reg on it. A little cntamnate is not like ebola. for what litttle is there other measures come into play. The fire triangle needs fuel heat and o2. cant do anything about o2 but the cleaning reduces ( not eliminataes) the amount of fuel and fill rate is controled to reduce the heat factor in all of its generation forms. Liability is the the end result issue. Although the OP was mostly questioning the tank sticker of 40% vs 100% in regards to degree of cleaning.

No body got it right yet. It's about liability. You can clean the tank and valve and put in oxygen compatible components BUT the big issue is adiabatic testing of the valve. While most valve manufacturers have tested to 40% pre-mix, to the best of my knowledge, no one has tested to 100%. In discussions I've had with them, their argument is once it leaves their possession, they can no longer state oxygen clean. Look at any Band-Aid wrapper, it says it's sterile until you open it. The valve manufacturers state the water environment by its very nature is not oxygen clean. No one can claim 100% oxygen clean until it meets CGA standards.

 

[Gilldiver]

you are not o2 clean once the tank leaves the o2 clean room it was cleaned in. .

O2 Clean Room???? - What dive shops do you go to?

I do Aircraft Hydraulic, Maned breathing systems, and Composite Bonding and I have never seen one dive shop, or dive shop maintenance area that would even come close to a clean room. Most shops I have seen do it out the back door.

 

[Topbodz]

Under that same premis. you are not o2 clean once the tank leaves the o2 clean room it was cleaned in. Touch the valve and you contanimate it. Kind of extreem inknow but, it is true. No cleaning is ment to make anything "clean" cleaning only attempts to rid the item on the majority of hazard contaminates. No one can get all the hydrocarbons out of a tank or valve. Even if you could you would contaminate it once you put a reg on it. A little cntamnate is not like ebola. for what litttle is there other measures come into play. The fire triangle needs fuel heat and o2. cant do anything about o2 but the cleaning reduces ( not eliminataes) the amount of fuel and fill rate is controled to reduce the heat factor in all of its generation forms. Liability is the the end result issue. Although the OP was mostly questioning the tank sticker of 40% vs 100% in regards to degree of cleaning.

Im not following.... "once you leave the room....." if you clean the tank and of course dry it with OCA, & pu the valve on ... how is it going to get contaminated... I don't think the valve would get contaminated just by touching it.. The only part to worry about is the inner parts, anyway you should be wearing gloves.... it all sounds a bit extreme....

 

[Superlyte27]

Why would you catch flack for that? You're pretty much right on the money except you left out the part about the money! I was recently quoted $35 to oxygen clean my valves after I already cleaned them..... It's not rocket science but I don't have the stickers and cards to attest to the cleaning to this particular LDS' satisfaction. FWIW they would sell me a "new" valve for just $4 more than the quoted cleaning price. Now I know you have to assume that average Joe isn't "Super Tech" and therefore not qualified to service his/her own gear but I am a Maintenance Technician for machines and devices that require exponentually more precision and and attention to detail. I do have a "gas blender" card but don't yet have the PSI card to satisfy the requirement to do what I am well qualified to do. I am reasonably certain that I am not unique but I am frustrated by LDSs that make up law or clearly mis-interpret actual law for the purpose of selling gear and services that are not necessary.

Tim, I can see both sides of the coin. It is simple for most. But then last month we got a guy in who had made up his own VIP stickers. As it worked out he brought in 8 tanks to be filled. All of them were in VIP except one. He debated on whether or not to VIP it himself but elected to have us do it because he needed the tanks filled immediately. So, we pulled off the valve and started the VIP and what we found was so much silicone it would have kept prison inmates in business for a year. So, we opened up the other 7 tanks, they too were lubed with ample silicone lube. I quickly stopped our partial pressure blend on the first tank I started filling and drained it. I called the customer and told him he could pay us $40 per tank to clean them, or he could put air in them. He took his tanks and went home.

The problem is.... people don't know, what they don't know. And sometimes what you don't know might blow you up.

 

[T. Bix]

I understand but I deal with and maintain Oxygen systems everyday as part of my day job. Like I said before "you have to assume the average Joe isn't super tech" but I'm not the average Joe (I suspect that Average Joe doesn't think he is either). But all that said I can provide documentation that says I am trained in the practices and procedures recomended and prescribed by these equipment manufacturers BUT a dive shop won't recognize what it all means.... I can accept that and I'd be willing to pay a reasonable charge for them to double check my work but not the cost of a new valve.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

O2 Clean Room???? - What dive shops do you go to?

I do Aircraft Hydraulic, Maned breathing systems, and Composite Bonding and I have never seen one dive shop, or dive shop maintenance area that would even come close to a clean room. Most shops I have seen do it out the back door.

One of the shops I work for has a clean room with positive pressure hyperfiltered air, etc. It is however the only dive shop I have seen with a clean room.

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That said, I can clean the valve in the clean room but when it's installed in the tank it's only as clean as the gas that is put through it and even O2 compatible gasses are only low in hydrocarbons, they are not hydrocarbon free, so contaminants will build up in the valve over time.

And the valve, because it is not designed for O2 service and generally violates many of the traits designed into O2 service valves, is the weak point in the system where O2 clean and sound operational practice matters most.