Value of the DIR approach

[RonFrank]

And yes, I'm an advocate for the system, and lamont wrote a beautiful post about why.

But the question I posted wasn't whether DIR was the best diving system for everybody at every time; I asked whether it had the most to offer to recreational divers, or people doing decompression or overhead diving.

Regardless of Lamont's wonderful post, the answer remains, Yes, No, Maybe? DIR advocates seem to think they invented diving standards that are beyond other agencies. The reality is they sidestep the majority of divers that want to be certified, and focus on only those that are.. Hmmm..... You must be certified to take a DIR-F class. How nice that DIR does not offer OW certification? I mean why bother?

In addition they fail most EVERY DIR-F individual? I've read of those who have failed NOT because their skills were not good, but because their BUDDIES skills were not up to par? As an elitist organization, they may have few equals.

DIR is also very unheard of in the industry. My CUZ, a Marine Biologist, and diving since the early 70's does NOT know what DIR is.

This is the ONLY board I'm aware of (K, the only BIG board) that is so supportive of DIR.

I guess I may never fit in!

 

[daniel f aleman]

Lynne would have had the same thoughts about IANTD, PADI/DSAT, or NAUI if she had be involved with any of those agencies and a had access to one of their great instructors.

I mean, these NAUI, SSI, and PADI guys don't know how to dive, and don't know how to teach? Please.

http://www.floridatechnicalscuba.com/staff.php

http://www.oceanicventures.com/staff.htm

http://www.prodiveusa.com/staff.html

 

[dumpsterDiver]

..Oh, one other thing my Lady In Black, I do actually like you very much. I am sorry that we are absolute total opposites. There once was a scorpian and a frog. The frog sitting there minding to his buisness aside a deep and swift stream was approached by a scorpian. The scorpian said to the frog, "Mr. Frog, would you be so kind as to let me hop on your back and you swim me across yon swift and deep stream." The frog said, "no freaking way Mr. Scorpian as you will sting me and I will die." The scorpian thought a minute and took a thoughtful stance and then offered, "no Mr. Frog, I would not sting you because then we would both die." The frog now strikes a thoughtful stance in return and thinking he had wanted to visit the other side said, "Ok then Mr. Scorpian, I shall ride you to the other side, please hop aboard." So, the scorpian crawled aboard and off they went, frog and scorpian. Half way across the deep and swift stream, in the the most treacherous point, the scorpian stung the frog! The frog, in disbelief asked "why, why, did you sting me, now we will both surely die!" The scorpian as if ssking somehow for forgiveness, said, "it is my nature." They both died.

N

Lynne, I'm not sure, but I don't think you should go diving with this guy..Even if he asks really, really nicely.

 

[Jasonmh]

Regardless of Lamont's wonderful post, the answer remains, Yes, No, Maybe? DIR advocates seem to think they invented diving standards that are beyond other agencies. The reality is they sidestep the majority of divers that want to be certified, and focus on only those that are.. Hmmm..... You must be certified to take a DIR-F class. How nice that DIR does not offer OW certification? I mean why bother?

In addition they fail most EVERY DIR-F individual? I've read of those who have failed NOT because their skills were not good, but because their BUDDIES skills were not up to par? As an elitist organization, they may have few equals.

DIR is also very unheard of in the industry. My CUZ, a Marine Biologist, and diving since the early 70's does NOT know what DIR is.

This is the ONLY board I'm aware of (K, the only BIG board) that is so supportive of DIR.

I guess I may never fit in!

Hi Ron, have we met?

I remember when I first started talking to you in person, you were pretty anti-dir . Now that we (the group) have been diving, even you have admited to seeing SOME benefits, even though you may not be ready to jump on board (that is ok).
In our DIR-f class, we had 1 tech pass, 1 rec pass, and one provisional. No one was unfairly judged by anothers performance in the class. In my opinion, THEY don't fail people, they clearly lay out what is expected and either you meet the standard or you don't. It was probably the most fair and ojective way of grading someones performance I have seen. But even that is not the point, the passing/failing doesn't matter much, it is what you get from the content of the class that is important.
And man, we have talked about the black thing, so I KNOW you know that isn't true. :shakehead

 

[Nemrod]

"Lynne, I'm not sure, but I don't think you should go diving with this guy..Even if he asks really, really nicely."

Humphffffff, I was thinking I was the frog!!!!!! N

 

[Ben_ca]

The reality is they sidestep the majority of divers that want to be certified, and focus on only those that are.. Hmmm..... You must be certified to take a DIR-F class. How nice that DIR does not offer OW certification? I mean why bother?

Do you realize how small GUE is? They are only 18 current Fundies instructors and only 4 Tech 1 guys in the US... They are developing an OW course but whether the demand materializes that's another story...

In addition they fail most EVERY DIR-F individual? I've read of those who have failed NOT because their skills were not good, but because their BUDDIES skills were not up to par? As an elitist organization, they may have few equals.

I think you are getting eroneous information... clouded by the haze of the internet... There are very few "fails" in fundies... out of the more than 20 ish guys I know who have taken it here in Monterey I do not know of anyone outright failing... You take the class... and you have very little time to practice the skills to the standard... some people do pull it off... most people come back within 6 months to get re evaluated.

This is the ONLY board I'm aware of (K, the only BIG board) that is so supportive of DIR.

I guess I may never fit in!

Maybe it's because as more and more people understand what it really is and seperate fact from myth it is becoming more common place. I wish you were here in Monterey, Seattle or LA and could come and audit one of the Fundies classses.... If nothing else it'll clear up some of the myths

 

[djanni]

No the DIR forum is for DIR only answers. She is asking what the value of DIR across different styles of diving. There is no DIR answer to that. Only opinion.

Jeff: Not sure I follow that??!?

"She is asking what the value of DIR is across different styles of diving."

Really? Asking who? Non DIR divers????

How could you possibly get a logical/reasonable answer to that from anyone who hasn't studied DIR? It would seem only DIR trained divers would know that answer so why not post over in the DIR forum where people who care about DIR hang out. Asking in the Basic forum just incites emotion.

And how does DIR effect "comfort?"

 

[Puffer Fish]

I don't know if these records exist or not. I'd guess not, becasue how do you qualify somebody as "DIR"? Just becasue they might have had GUE training does not automatically make them DIR.



Pretty strong statement to make in the absense of any proof.
If the records don't exist, and again I know of no repository of accidents that tracks if a injured party was a. GUE Trained, b. Current in his Training, c. Strickly following the GUE protocols. The fact that a DIR-f card qualifies the holder only to take additional GUE classes makes this type of tracking problematic. Some accident data bases will include whether or not the diver was diving beyond their level of training, but how do you determine that with a DIR-f cert?




Agreed RB's kill at a rate that scares me.



I might suggest you do your homework. With the exception of the RB80, which is a keyed demand SCR, the GUE position on RB is "too dangerous" Why? Exactly because of the accident rate.

It's clearly true that some GUE trained divers have moved to ECCR's. When they are using the RB's they are not following GUE guidelines. Should we include these folks, and God forbid any accidents they might suffer, as injuries / deaths of DIR divers? Of course not.



I've seen the results, first hand, close up and personal. Better divers with a high level of safety awareness.

Tobin

Tobin, the records do exist, and DAN has a tremendous set of them. But one point about training records, they don't sort by anything other than someone passed the course. An individual might decide later to break with the training and do their own thing, but they had the training.

You cannot exclude someone because they decided to dive with other equipment, in fact, if they did (as was the case in a bunch of European deaths in this last year) it is actually, like it or not, a reflection of the training. Hate to say this, but the same thing happens in rech divers.. most die because they did not follow their training. So should every agency, only count events, if the person was doing exactly as they are told.. in that case, almost every agency would have a perfect track record.

Note: I believe almost everyone one tells you to to die while diving, so if you do, you did not follow directions.

What you find, is that there is a great deal of difference between what people like to believe and what really happens. Accidents per dive for every group (including DIR) should tell one, where additional training is helpful and where it is not. I have avoided posting the actual numbers because what I have is over 2 years old and I don't have access to the current numbers. Anyone who belongs to DAN should have access.

And having a specific group, say their have a perfect safety record, is not the same as actually having one.

I agree with Jeff on the rebreather issue, I was using it as an example of training not producing what one would expect.

 

[nadwidny]

Of course, you didn't answer my question, I wasn't talking about basic knots, I asked about tieing knots one handed in zero vis. Remember, you insisted on one handed tieing.
You also didn't clarify why every warm water diver should be able to do it in mitts.
Frankly, I'd take your point a lot more seriously if you posted a video of you tieing a bowline, single handed wearing a blacked out mask. Until I see that video, it just sounds like SB hot air to me.

I've been bumping into Thalassamania since about '92. I don't agree with some of his opinions but I know his background, I know his experience and I know I don't need to see no video.

Time for you to sit down, listen and learn something because the grownups are talking.

 

[TSandM]

How does DIR affect comfort?

Last Tuesday, I did a dive with two buddies. We were all similarly equipped, and we understood one another's gear. We planned the dive with a common vocabulary and common expectations. The pre-dive procedures were understood and executed efficiently and quickly, because we all knew what they were. We got in the water and we all knew where we were to be and how we were to communicate. At no point in the dive was there any confusion. At all times, we all knew where each team member was, and what their status was. We had poor visibility throughout (dogged by the SEAL team) and one of us had some equipment issues, but the dive continued without incident.

That's comfort. Everybody knew the score. Everybody could relax, because nobody was going to do anything unexpected or inexplicable.

I've had two dives in the last ten days where dive buddies have been hard to keep track of, or have done things I totally didn't understand, like doing 180s and taking off at high speed in the direction from which we had come. That's discomfort.

Shared procedures, shared protocols, good communication, and team discipline makes for a very, very comfortable dive.