Value of the DIR approach

[Thalassamania]

Its in the forum that I can't see. But IIRC it was like 8 OW dives, double or triple the number of pool sessions (from typical PADI OW class)

The problem is not that its a waste of money, but that the people in the market for scuba lesson don't know what they don't know.

A tough sell when they go down the street and someone else says "Nah...you don't need all that. I can get you certified for a third of that and do it over the weekend"

You’ve got that right, but I don’t want to teach that market and I don’t guess that you do either. All my students are either the family of divers who know better, or researchers in a pinch. You’ll not pick up much of the latter, but the former? I know that if my wife wanted to learn to dive (she doesn’t but I would never try to teach her myself anyway) I be happy to spend a grand to make sure it was done correctly and that at the end of her training she’d be the kind of buddy I’d need her to be. LIke they say ... "cheap at twice the price."

 

[caseybird]

If you have not got a good handle on a bunch of stuff including (but not limited to) gas management, kicks, and basic knots, in my mind you’re not a diver you’re still a trainee. Those are the basic knots that anyone going to sea, not just divers, should be able to tie. If you see basic knot tying as a parlor trick, as far as I’m concerned you have no business going out on anything but a princess cruise.

As far as the mitts are concerned, when you train it helps to train in a more difficult format, when you practice you should practice as you dive. For those of us who dive cold, those are one and the same.

Of course, you didn't answer my question, I wasn't talking about basic knots, I asked about tieing knots one handed in zero vis. Remember, you insisted on one handed tieing.
You also didn't clarify why every warm water diver should be able to do it in mitts.
Frankly, I'd take your point a lot more seriously if you posted a video of you tieing a bowline, single handed wearing a blacked out mask. Until I see that video, it just sounds like SB hot air to me.

 

[Thalassamania]

Of course, you didn't answer my question, I wasn't talking about basic knots, I asked about tieing knots one handed in zero vis. Remember, you insisted on one handed tieing.
You also didn't clarify why every warm water diver should be able to do it in mitts.
Frankly, I'd take your point a lot more seriously if you posted a video of you tieing a bowline, single handed wearing a blacked out mask. Until I see that video, it just sounds like SB hot air to me.

One handing tying is standard procedure, "one hand for me, one for the boat." I clarified why it should be first learned in mitts, you just didn't understand. There are hundreds of divers that I've taught how to do this, and if it sounds like hot air to you, well ... I'm trying to turn over a new leaf so all I can say is, "bless your little heart."

 

[TSandM]

Originally Posted by catherine96821
Lamont, this is just an offhand observation I made.

I think DIR is a great thing, but the thing that I have noticed in real life dives, is that there are DIR divers out there that you THINK are good divers because they LOOK like good divers. So...it is easy to get in over my head with them. They appear to have it so together, and then something happens, and you realize they don't think outside of their box yet. In my experience, the training has this downside. They think they are so prepared, they are so BUSY with all their tasks, and meanwhile **** is happening and they seem a little too focused on the tasks.

This is interesting, catherine. I got an opinion on Fundies from a woman technical diver here in Seattle with more experience and more knowledge than the vast majority of the DIR people here. She said, in her opinion, taking Fundies could make somebody look like they were a 100 dive diver when they were way less experienced than that. They still wouldn't BE a 100 dive diver, but they'd look like it far earlier.

I don't have an ulterior motive in starting such a thread, but I did think it was an interesting question to talk about . . . In part because so MANY divers say, "Well, it looks like a good system, but it's not relevant to the diving I do."

So much of what is posted against the DIR system is misunderstanding . . . I may dive doubles in 30 feet of water, but it's not because I think they're necessary there. It's because I'm learning to dive them, so I dive them everywhere. I don't have black gear -- I have a bright orange wing with reflective tape on it!

Nemrod has some very strong opinions about the system, and he's entitled to them. I wish he'd voice them with a little more restraint and a little less vitriol, but they're his opinions.

And yes, I'm an advocate for the system, and lamont wrote a beautiful post about why.

But the question I posted wasn't whether DIR was the best diving system for everybody at every time; I asked whether it had the most to offer to recreational divers, or people doing decompression or overhead diving.

 

[daniel f aleman]

But the question I posted wasn't whether DIR was the best diving system for everybody at every time; I asked whether it had the most to offer to recreational divers, or people doing decompression or overhead diving.

The answer is no.

Also, knot tieing used to be standard training in Search and Recovery. In 1975, doing what is now considered S&R we had to find a car at the bottom of the lake and bring it up, 2 ft vis at 100', 40 degrees. Taught by a NAUI instructor, of course. I learned so much about tieing knots underwater simply by doing something pratical that needed that particular knowledge and skill.

 

[DennisS]

If you take away dive accidents involving heart attacks and out of shape divers, the recreational dive community has a pretty good safety record. Extra training is always good but the cost and the time could be a nice vacation instead.

Having automobile drivers take advanced training involving skid pans and high speed control would definitely improve their driving and always wearing a helmet in the car would reduce their likelihood of a fatality.

It comes down to a cost/benefit ratio. If someone is content with their level and dives within that level, do they really need DIR training.

"If you can't tie a knot, tie alot"

 

[caseybird]

One handing tying is standard procedure, "one hand for me, one for the boat." I clarified why it should be first learned in mitts, you just didn't understand. There are hundreds of divers that I've taught how to do this, and if it sounds like hot air to you, well ... I'm trying to turn over a new leaf so all I can say is, "bless your little heart."

Waiting for the video. Remember, zero-vis.

 

[Jasonmh]

There are many other divers just as/more skilled who have fun exploring w/o drills and skills and all the rest.

This sounds to me like you are saying some people just like to get in the water, and not worry about "skills and all the rest" . Don't you think it would be important for all divers to practice some of those safety drills and skills once in a while?

 

[Jasonmh]

... I'm still the best diver and instructor I know

With that ego we'd love to have you, you'll fit right in, come on over

*disclaimer - I am totally kidding, I just thought your comment was funny (as i'm sure many would say they are the best diver they know), and besides, DIR requires a superiority complex so large that few can measure up,

 

[Nemrod]

Posted by TSandM, quote:

"Nemrod has some very strong opinions about the system, and he's entitled to them. I wish he'd voice them with a little more restraint and a little less vitriol, but they're his opinions."

Well, my Lady in Black, you on a one woman crusade to DIR-ify the world and considering the philosophical nature of DIR it all being holistic and low calorie and the answer to everything then consider some more philospophy, eastern, yin and yang, for you, then there is a counter balance in the universe and it is ME<----------NEMROD, Hunter of the Depths! For the darkness there has to be light to maintain the balance, the essential equilibrium.

"Fundies"

Now there is a word, something about it is just to granola for me.

Oh, one other thing my Lady In Black, I do actually like you very much. I am sorry that we are absolute total opposites. There once was a scorpian and a frog. The frog sitting there minding to his buisness aside a deep and swift stream was approached by a scorpian. The scorpian said to the frog, "Mr. Frog, would you be so kind as to let me hop on your back and you swim me across yon swift and deep stream." The frog said, "no freaking way Mr. Scorpian as you will sting me and I will die." The scorpian thought a minute and took a thoughtful stance and then offered, "no Mr. Frog, I would not sting you because then we would both die." The frog now strikes a thoughtful stance in return and thinking he had wanted to visit the other side said, "Ok then Mr. Scorpian, I shall ride you to the other side, please hop aboard." So, the scorpian crawled aboard and off they went, frog and scorpian. Half way across the deep and swift stream, in the the most treacherous point, the scorpian stung the frog! The frog, in disbelief asked "why, why, did you sting me, now we will both surely die!" The scorpian as if ssking somehow for forgiveness, said, "it is my nature." They both died.

N