Using octo upside down

[2airishuman]

I look and the "consistency" is a few and always the same guys, who elaborate their long hose primary donate superiority story to everybody who can't hear it anymore and doesn't bother to argue as it's useless.[...]

Who said anything about a long hose? I didn't, I use primary donate with a medium length hose that's routed under my arm and back up to the 1st stage.

[T]he main problem is most recreational divers don't want to take the time to practice an OOA (or any other for that matter) skill with their eyes closed or even with their eyes open.

I'm hanging this one on the decline and fall of the rugged shore diving culture. Shore diving lets you get out and dive without the expense and opportunity cost of doing it from a boat in Cozumel, and gives you a chance to learn to be independent.

 

[tursiops]

Who said anything about a long hose? I didn't, I use primary donate with a medium length hose that's routed under my arm and back up to the 1st stage.

Exactly. It is a longer hose (than is usually on a primary) but not a "long hose" (which now seems to mean at least 5 if not 7 ft).

 

[JackD342]

@David R Johnson
Okay, you now have a lengthy list of pros and cons for various methods, procedures, and gear configurations. In my opinion, none of them are absolutely correct and none of them are absolutely wrong. You need to weigh the variables that apply to you, the way you dive, and folks you dive with, and then make the best informed decision you can. I really do applaud you for asking the question in the first place, as you are thinking about problem solving rather than just learning by rote. Can't teach you ahead of time a fool proof solution for every possible scenario.

The one bit of advice I will suggest you possibly take with a bit of salt, is all of the posts that basically tell you to change/enhance/whatever the training/experience/practice of the OTHER diver. You know best whether or not you are always diving with the same buddy, or in the same group, or even if you are usually/always diving with a group that is trained and configured for primary donate or for the typical yellow hose & cover octo donate.

Is it best to conform with your gear configuration?
Or is it reasonable for you to choose to be the lone standout in a group trying to change what the others are doing and educating everyone on what is different with yours? Or even to just educate one buddy on a different system? That is all on you to decide.

Whatever direction you go, do make it a solid practice to always educate your buddy on your alternate air source equipment figuration and go over procedures, even review hand signals for OOA. And understand your buddy's system.
I am often diving not only with a single buddy, but also in a small group within the larger group on the boat, and make sure that my friends that I am likely to be proximate to on the dive are also educated on anything unusual on my rig, just in case. (sometimes those buddy lines get blurred on the dive, or pairings switch as folks hit air supply limits and surface.)

If curious, locally I am diving with a "standard" configuration Legend octo on my Legend primary set. When travelling, sometimes I have an Airsource on my BCD with my Apeks Flight, and sometimes I have an Apeks Egress "puck" style in the "standard" configuration. And no, I have NEVER had to respond to an actual OOA emergency. I have on a couple of occasions found the need to stick a regulator in a student's mouth during training. To my surprise, without planning it or thinking about it ahead of time, my instantaneous reaction was to take my primary out my own mouth and shove it in theirs, then to find my octo while I am doing a slow exhale. I know I am not the one that is going to panic, and once everyone is calmed down we can sort out and rearrange who is breathing off of what hose.

 

[Bob DBF]

You need to weigh the variables that apply to you, the way you dive, and folks you dive with, and then make the best informed decision you can.

An Amen to that!

In addition, in my case, it did not cost too much to try out different configurations and procedures rather than just make an intellectual decision.


Bob

 

[Zef]

[QUOTE="David R Johnson, post: 8526940, member: 497729"To be specific, we are talking about 90 F, reef/wreck diving, 150 feet or less, in a group of people my wife and I barely know, once or twice a year vacation. This is likely all we will be doing. No neckless, just a yellow hose and hopfully, yellow safe second on the right side, for use in an emergency. And by the way, yes I am new to diving. So be gentle.[/QUOTE]

You seem to be rationalizing a gear choice based on a specific diving scenario but the scenario you describe has all sorts of red flags in it that the more experienced/educated diver would raise an eyebrow at and recommend higher performing gear to meet the demands. Lets break it down:

1. "90F"...is this air temp? If so then it is only significant in that you will not have to worry about your reg freezing prior to getting in the water...the vast majority of divers in the world do not dive in temps where reg freezing during pre-dive checks is an issue. For those that do dive where this is a concern they either have a reg designed to deal with this or they suffer the freeze up and abort the dive before entering the water. If it occurs after entering the water, the reg will typically freeze in the open state which leaves it possible to continue breathing off the reg as one ascends or as they swim to their buddy to grab their octo.

2. "150 feet" or less....last I checked 132feet (+/- 40 meters) was considered the recreational diving limit. There are significant reasons one should not exceed this depth limit without proper training and equipment. If you are diving that deep then you will want to be more than a "casual" diver that does not put much thought or emphasis on their gear and should start thinking about things from a performance-safety standpoint.

3. "In a group of people my wife and I barely know"...diving with folks you don't know creates risk as you have no idea of their training, experience, how they react under stress, etc. If you have the ability to choose your gear for this situation the recommendation would be to choose gear that may help mitigate the risk that these divers may potentially bring to your table.

4. "once or twice a year on vacation"....this is a common scenario for the vast number of divers out there. They either don't have the time, the locations, the disposable income, the interest, or any of many other reasons why they do not dive more frequently. While I prefer to use my own gear even when traveling, I dive relatively year round. When I was only diving a couple times a year, I rented equipment such as regulators...it just was not cost effective to purchase. Think about it....an entry level regulator set can be purchase for less than $200. My wife owns an Aqualung Calypso set up, 1st stage, 2nd stage, and octo was 175 euros and then I received a 20% discount. I paid another 50euro for the SPG. The cost to service this setup after 2 years of diving would be between 100-125 euros. It would be financially smarter to sell the set (minus the spg) and use the money to offset the cost of another new setup. I digress, I was just trying to lay out a financial example of regulator ownership. The reality is that you will have to maintain this gear despite the fact that you will only be using it occasionally...you actually may have more problems than the diver that is using their regulator on a frequent basis. Whether a higher performance reg will be of benefit or not in this situation would be debatable, but is still something to think about.

5. "No neckless, just a yellow hose and hopfully, yellow safe second on the right side, for use in an emergency. And by the way, yes I am new to diving. So be gentle."...you acknowledge your lack of experience which is good, but you seem to be patently rejecting the advice on configuration that more experienced divers have offered. I personally have no expectation that you will blindly follow any of the advice you are given here, but in the responses you have received some good info to consider and you seem to be rejecting a good chunk of it based on what I can only presume is your comfort level with the configuration you were trained on that I assume was both 2nd stages routed over the right hand shoulder, yellow for the oct, 30-36inch long hoses. If this is what you want to dive then great, there is nothing wrong with that...but there are other options out there and some of those options that have been presented will fix the original issue you presented when you opened this thread....a long hose/primary done 2nd stage allows you to hand over the octo rightside up even though it is routed from the right hand side. It is also much cheaper to buy a 5-7foot hose than to buy a fancy-shmancy side venting 2nd stage that may or may not breath dry when upside down. Long hose/primary donate is not the end-all/be-all configuration but there are practical reasons why one should consider it.

All that being said....I have regulator set that has an Aqualung ABS octo on it. I used in the traditional configuration (both hoses routed over right shoulder with the octo clipped in the "golden triangle" ) for quite awhile, I have also used it with it slung on a bungee necklace with my primary on a 40-inch hose "primary donate/streamlined" configuration. I never had an issue with it in either configuration. It seems to breath dry right side up or upside down, but I do not consider it a high performance reg and have given it to my daughter who is more of a fair weather diver. I will note however that I personally would not go out and specifically buy this 2nd stage, it came on a used regulator set that I purchase a bunch of years ago, and I only have it/use it as function of it is what I had at the time (and still have). If I was making a choice to purchase a 2nd stage separately I would definitely look at something better breathing at depth that is regarded as a higher performance regulator (Deep 6 signature or Mares Abyss for example).

The reality is that what ever octo you have, when the S$%t hits the fan and that diver takes your octo and shoves it in their mouth, they may not hit the purge button or blow out first and will most likely get a mouthful of water. The reality also is, in my opinion, that if a diver is out of air and in a panicked state clawing for your octo, then lots of stuff has gone wrong because they ran out of air without any anticipation. Unless one suffers a 1st stage or low pressure hose failure and for some reason they don't see or hear the bubbles and their buddy is so oblivious to you that they don't see it either (which is a problem in and of itself) then there is no good reason for a diver to find themself in an OOA emergency unexpectedly....I can see a severe entanglement issue delaying access to the surface causing an OOA emergency but the OOA will not occur unexpectedly.

-Z

 

[tmassey]

Did your instructor point to any evidence that this indeed is what will happen? I hate it when I hear this line. In all the LOA and OOA situations I've seen or dealt with at no time did anyone reach for the reg in the mouth. They reverted to their training. In one case the diver didn't revert to training, instead the diver bolted to the surface. One could argue the diver did revert to training by using the skill CESA. There have been studies on this in the U.S. and the U.K. in which both sides of the pond reported that divers reverted to their training.

Interesting question. In the few OOA situations I’ve seen, the OOA diver was *given* the primary reg — whether the donating diver was primary donate or not. In other words, even when the donating diver was trained to donate an octo, they donated their primary. Once the OOA diver was under control, they then swapped.

Is that how they should have been trained? Probably not. But it was logical to them, so they did it.

For the OP: dive and let dive. You want secondary donate? Great. You want to explore primary donate? I personally dive that way, but I did it the other way for 15 years, and 98% of divers do right now. It’s not as much about the details. Dive and let dive.

It *is* about the process. I would caution you to think *deeply* about your assumptions and the possibly unseen costs of your decisions. Once you presuppose a terrible situation, it will lead to a less than ideal result. *Always* try to focus on the step *before*. How did I get to this hypothetical situation? What could I have done before to avoid this? (And then redo it again: what could I do before that? )

For example, a hypothetical OOA buddy. You know who’s fault that is? Yours. You stated you’re diving with strangers. You don’t know their air consumption, you don’t know their discipline. So when you use up 500 PSI of *your* gas, insist on a buddy check. Did they use more gas than you? Then at another 500 PSI (or even less if necessary) insist on a buddy check. Now you can have a good estimate of where they’ll be based on your consumption. No OOA.

But let’s keep going: what could you do to avoid this *before* you get in the water? Create a dive plan for yourself. How much gas you’re starting with, an accurate estimate of your gas consumption, and hard numbers where things will happen: turn pressure, ascent pressure, etc. Then review your plan with your buddy and warn them about the buddy checks. Even a highly skilled diver will not argue. (I’ve been on doubles and had single-tank divers ask my pressure. I roll my eyes emotionally, but I’ve never said a word: it’s better than a completely tuned out buddy.)

None of this has anything to do with primary donate.

The problem is: all of this is WAY harder than chucking a $150 piece of plastic at your gear. It means thinking ahead, collecting information and planning in advance, taking the lead, negotiating with a stranger and sometimes being a pain. But it’s the *actual* solution. It completely avoids the OOA.

‘But what if you *do* have the OOA?’ How? They don’t happen at random. Even equipment failure will give you lead time. OOA is an attention or respect/humility problem. Can’t fix that with the shape of the octo.

You can go farther. Plan an OOA skill check. Maybe you tell the buddy. Maybe you don’t. When I did a live aboard in October, I did an unannounced OOA on the first dive. It’s called a checkout dive for a reason. If I’m diving with you for a week, I’m checking out your ability, too! . It took 30 seconds. When we got onboard, she asked why the drill, were you testing me? Yup. Made sense to her...

Anyway, please keep asking questions. But while you’re doing that, try to ask deeper questions that will lead to a much deeper truth.

 

[MichaelMc]

Interesting question. In the few OOA situations I’ve seen, the OOA diver was *given* the primary reg — whether the donating diver was primary donate or not. In other words, even when the donating diver was trained to donate an octo, they donated their primary. Once the OOA diver was under control, they then swapped.

Is that how they should have been trained? Probably not. But it was logical to them, so they did it.

For the OP: dive and let dive. You want secondary donate? Great. You want to explore primary donate? I personally dive that way, but I did it the other way for 15 years, and 98% of divers do right now. It’s not as much about the details. Dive and let dive.

It *is* about the process. I would caution you to think *deeply* about your assumptions and the possibly unseen costs of your decisions. Once you presuppose a terrible situation, it will lead to a less than ideal result. *Always* try to focus on the step *before*. How did I get to this hypothetical situation? What could I have done before to avoid this? (And then redo it again: what could I do before that? )

For example, a hypothetical OOA buddy. You know who’s fault that is? Yours. You stated you’re diving with strangers. You don’t know their air consumption, you don’t know their discipline. So when you use up 500 PSI of *your* gas, insist on a buddy check. Did they use more gas than you? Then at another 500 PSI (or even less if necessary) insist on a buddy check. Now you can have a good estimate of where they’ll be based on your consumption. No OOA.

But let’s keep going: what could you do to avoid this *before* you get in the water? Create a dive plan for yourself. How much gas you’re starting with, an accurate estimate of your gas consumption, and hard numbers where things will happen: turn pressure, ascent pressure, etc. Then review your plan with your buddy and warn them about the buddy checks. Even a highly skilled diver will not argue. (I’ve been on doubles and had single-tank divers ask my pressure. I roll my eyes emotionally, but I’ve never said a word: it’s better than a completely tuned out buddy.)

None of this has anything to do with primary donate.

The problem is: all of this is WAY harder than chucking a $150 piece of plastic at your gear. It means thinking ahead, collecting information and planning in advance, taking the lead, negotiating with a stranger and sometimes being a pain. But it’s the *actual* solution. It completely avoids the OOA.

‘But what if you *do* have the OOA?’ How? They don’t happen at random. Even equipment failure will give you lead time. OOA is an attention or respect/humility problem. Can’t fix that with the shape of the octo.

You can go farther. Plan an OOA skill check. Maybe you tell the buddy. Maybe you don’t. When I did a live aboard in October, I did an unannounced OOA on the first dive. It’s called a checkout dive for a reason. If I’m diving with you for a week, I’m checking out your ability, too! . It took 30 seconds. When we got onboard, she asked why the drill, were you testing me? Yup. Made sense to her...

Anyway, please keep asking questions. But while you’re doing that, try to ask deeper questions that will lead to a much deeper truth.

A good post about anticipating your buddy's time to OOA, to prevent an OOA situation with them.

Yet any diver in a group might come to you OOA, so a smooth response to OOA is a good thing. However you manage that. I use primary donate, with necklaced backup. My backup reg is where I can get to it easiest, after no longer having my primary, for whatever reason.

 

[АлександрД]

are there any puck style octos out there that can be used in either orientation? Would you recommend them?

All Poseidon 2nd stages

Dacor Viper

Oceanic Omega-s

Oceanic Omega III aka Hollis 500 SE

Aquamatic

amd more rare and old, but I think this should be enough?

But best Octo is Pony

 

[kelemvor]

The integrated inflator/regulators cost more than a second stage. Hard to do better than a 36-40-inch hose on your primary, under your arm, coming vertically up into your mouth, and an alternate hanging around your neck. Cheaper, more robust, tried and true, no confusion or issues if (when) needed. Yes, the integrated units work, but so does a trowel to dig a ditch.

Yes, but a trowel doesn't work as good as a shovel for ditch digging. An air2 (and I assume ss1) breathe just as good as a high quality "normal" second stage. The only difference is where you store it. Maybe there is some theoretical difference on a hugeaholic (or whatever the machine is called) but in my experience my air2 breathes well.


I don't dive as often as a lot of scubaboarders. I've only got 200 dives after 5 years of diving. However, in that time I don't think I've ever had a buddy - or even someone on my boat go OOA for real except one guy who was already at the surface and ran out while he was waiting his turn to climb the ladder. That guy spat out the reg and just breathed the air on the surface.

 

[David R Johnson]

I would like to thank everyone for you suggestions, thoughts and comments. I really did not intend to spark such a lively debate.
Thanks to you we now have a pretty good idea what we will be purchasing.
It is clear to me, a newby, that there are recreational divers ( such as my wife and I) and then there are those who wish to learn and do more. I can see where there is a distinct difference equipment use and expectations in the two.
Thank you again for your input.