Using octo upside down

[tursiops]

You could also look into an alt/octo like the Scubapro Air2 or Atomic SS1. In that scenario you donate your primary and use it - both to breathe and to inflate your bcd. Atomic uses a special hose and guarantees it breathes as well as their primary models. My usual dive buddy has one - it works.

The integrated inflator/regulators cost more than a second stage. Hard to do better than a 36-40-inch hose on your primary, under your arm, coming vertically up into your mouth, and an alternate hanging around your neck. Cheaper, more robust, tried and true, no confusion or issues if (when) needed. Yes, the integrated units work, but so does a trowel to dig a ditch.

 

[Bob DBF]

In an out of air situation you give, or they rip out of your mouth, your primary and then you breathe off the Octo

I hope I noticed something was wrong before that as a good buddy should

In my experience, only 2, it is not your buddy that will need air, it will be some diver in the area and you are a target of opportunity as he has already lost his buddy. The last time I actually had to buddy breathe with a buddy was before the alternate second, SPG, and BC were in wide use, the lack of SPG being the actual reason.

Pardon my ignorance. But what does breathing easy or rough matter when the only time I or anyone will actually use the yellow octo (other that testing it) is when we are making a safe ascent to the surface, after they or I have had an issue?

Your testing, imho, of your alternate second should be more than a few breaths. I will breathe it at depth for a while before switching back to my primary. I see no reason to rely on a reg without a reasonable test. With a bungeed backup this is easy, without it may be a pita to reattach the alternate, but better than finding an issue with the reg during an emergency.

If it breathes rough during an emergency, it is not comforting to whoever is using it at the time. In an emergency I am not particularly picky as long I can breathe, I would bet the majority are expecting to breathe the same as on their own rig.



Bob

 

[shurite7]

I could see this being a major (if not fatal) issue when someone is in despirate need of air.

The reason this could become an issue is because the diver received poor training and, most likely, doesn't practice his or hers skills. Tbone hit on this in his first post, trying to use equipment to overcome poor skills as a solution is the problem. Don't be the diver who doesn't take the time to practice skills. It is simple, it can be fun, plus it simply makes sense to do so.

As you can tell, I am not a fan of the puck alternate second stages; they are for non-thinking divers who want cheap gear. With that being stated Apex does make a nice one and it is the one I would recommend. Poseidon also has a nice one.

I am in the school of thought practicing your skills. So many divers neglect this, thinking the once, maybe twice, of doing the skills in BOW training is enough. Scripts Institute has shown that it take practice to become proficient. If one is not going to practice, expect there to be problems. Avoid buying equipment to overcome a skill deficiency as a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Besides, my first open water instructor told me this: the octo is not for your buddy. The octo is for you. If they are truly OOA, they will simply rip the reg out of your mouth.

Did your instructor point to any evidence that this indeed is what will happen? I hate it when I hear this line. In all the LOA and OOA situations I've seen or dealt with at no time did anyone reach for the reg in the mouth. They reverted to their training. In one case the diver didn't revert to training, instead the diver bolted to the surface. One could argue the diver did revert to training by using the skill CESA. There have been studies on this in the U.S. and the U.K. in which both sides of the pond reported that divers reverted to their training.

Research has shown that colors don't mean anything,

What research are you referring to? In one of the Andrea Doria / You Who Sub books (Deep Decent, Fatal Depth, Last Dive) one of the divers had a pink alternate in which he was razzed for. When another diver ran out of air the diver he chose to go to was the person with the pink alternate. Not necessarily because it was pink, but because of association and all the teasing.

Research has shown ... and real world experience from many of us dealing with OOA incidents shows that if someone is going to grab a regulator, they're grabbing the one that is making bubbles in your mouth.

I am surprised you would write this. There is plenty of research that contradicts this. BSAC, SSAC, and Lifeguard Systems have conducted studies on this issue and stated people reverted to training, not grabbing the one in a person's mouth. At DEMA this past fall this issue was covered in a seminar and the same conclusion was pointed out. This does make me wonder, though, about the days when buddy breathing was taught; I could see this happening with them.

 

[2airishuman]

Pardon my ignorance. But what does breathing easy or rough matter when the only time I or anyone will actually use the yellow octo (other that testing it) is when we are making a safe ascent to the surface, after they or I have had an issue? We area not planning on tec diving. If that is in the future, then yes a better second will be on the table. To be specific, we are talking about 90 F, reef/wreck diving, 150 feet or less, in a group of people my wife and I barely know, once or twice a year vacation. This is likely all we will be doing. No neckless, just a yellow hose and hopfully, yellow safe second on the right side, for use in an emergency.
And by the way, yes I am new to diving. So be gentle.

Well, everyone has an approach to diving and it is certainly true that some very capable and experienced divers feel exactly the way you do.

It is my view that during an out-of-air emergency, you and the out-of-air individual will be breathing heavily and so you want to have gear that will support that. I also like to switch regulators during the course of the dive as a means of remaining confident that both of them work and will be there when I need them.

 

[rsingler]

@David R Johnson , I hope you are struck by the consistency of the collective experience here.
The designers want to dazzle you with "compact", or "omnidirectional". But look how many experienced divers here are saying bungeed necklace and longer hose with primary donate. Look how many want a high-performing alternate regulator.
Why is that?
Why have training organizations gone to great pains recently to make it clear that configurations other than "yellow hose" are okay? Because experience shows what really works in a pinch.

 

[tbone1004]

@shurite7 remember the BSAC is polling all of their divers, all of which are trained for secondary take, so their polling is skewed.
I have had regs ripped out of my mouth several times. Newer divers, legit thought they were out of air and were in a panicked state. They were not thinking, there was no reversion to training. Now, prior to that state, they may well have been able to ask for an air source which is what their training dictated, but if they're panicked, they grab. They can't see a secondary hanging off to your side or behind you, they see a regulator in your mouth and want it.
Now, this weekend I will be diving open circuit with secondary donate. Why? I'm on a double hose, no choice. Same when on a CCR, but the secondary is on a necklace that I can pop out easily so it's in the same spot.

Colors are ridiculous, there's no reason for that. With primary donate especially, there's 0 point in the colors because you are the one giving the regulator so no one is "looking" for anything. You should be able to do OOA scenarios blind so how is a color going to help? If you're trying to grab for something like BSAC teaches *which if someone ever grabs something off and they aren't panicked, I'm grabbing it right back. You ask nicely*, then I can see why the contrast would be helpful, but if you are donating your regulator, color is irrelevant.

 

[leadduck]

@David R Johnson , I hope you are struck by the consistency of the collective experience here.
The designers want to dazzle you with "compact", or "omnidirectional". But look how many experienced divers here are saying bungeed necklace and longer hose with primary donate.

I look and the "consistency" is a few and always the same guys, who elaborate their long hose primary donate superiority story to everybody who can't hear it anymore and doesn't bother to argue as it's useless. A loud ignored minority in an internet forum does not equate collective experience in the real world. Well I'm using a long hose too and primary donate but I don't tell everybody a story about how it's totally superior to the secondary donate octopus setup for recreational vacation divers, because there's no base for that claim.

 

[rsingler]

I don't tell everybody a story about how it's totally superior to the secondary donate octopus setup for recreational vacation divers

Easy, amigo.
All I'm saying is that a downstream ABS style that is not well tuned, is an inferior reg, even if it's usable upside down. I'm saying that in this thread, look how many folks took a different tack than standard recreational. It's worth considering, for a new diver. I see you dive that way, too. So lighten up.

 

[tbone1004]

I look and the "consistency" is a few and always the same guys, who elaborate their long hose primary donate superiority story to everybody who can't hear it anymore and doesn't bother to argue as it's useless. A loud ignored minority in an internet forum does not equate collective experience in the real world. Well I'm using a long hose too and primary donate but I don't tell everybody a story about how it's totally superior to the secondary donate octopus setup for recreational vacation divers, because there's no base for that claim.

so if primary donate is not superior for vacation divers, why is secondary donate superior for that configuration?

 

[shurite7]

@shurite7Colors are ridiculous, there's no reason for that.

When it comes to psychology (a topic covered in the psychology I took) color association can make a difference. This is why the yellow, the most visible color by the human eye according to psychology, is used for the alternate.

@shurite7 With primary donate especially, there's 0 point in the colors because you are the one giving the regulator so no one is "looking" for anything. You should be able to do OOA scenarios blind so how is a color going to help?

This I totally agree with. Sadly, the main problem is most recreational divers don't want to take the time to practice an OOA (or any other for that matter) skill with their eyes closed or even with their eyes open.