'U' v 'O' shaped wings - does it matter?

[cool_hardware52]

Do you deburr the slots for the harness?

Why would we deburr the slots we overmold? As I already stated we do deburr all the other penetrations. Doing 8 more slots while at the deburring bench would not be a big deal, but is pointless. If you remove the grommet, the slots will be to wide, and too long to be useful. Remember the slots in question have to be oversized to allow room for the elastomer.

It's great that you have found a plastic formulation and manufacturing process such that over the useful life of the plate the moldings will never break, wear out or separate from the steel substrate.

I suspect you are not really congradulating me, but are really attempting to imply that the gromments will rot and fall out.

The particular TPE (thermoplastic elastomer) we use has been in widespread use for 30 years or so. Commonly used for things like air induction boots (that's the flexible rubber thing between the air cleaner and the throttle body under the hoods of some cars), CV boots (that's the cover over the constant velocity boots on most front wheel drive cars) and for window guide rails in many vehicles.

The resin manufacturer, knowing which vehicles employed their compounds did a study where they recovered CV boots, and window rails from old junked cars. These items were ground up, and used to mold new test samples. These test samples performed almost like samples made from virgin material. It's normal for some small lost of performance to be evidenced just from grinding and remelting. Some samples were over 25 years old.

The conditions under the hood of most cars, or at the CV boot level is nasty, hot dirty, etc. Window guide rails are subjest to lots of UV exposure. If the elastomer we use performs in these environs then I'm confident that it will work OK in the corner of a Scuba BackPlate.

Seperate from the Substrate? How? There are additional small penetrations around each grommet, i.e. just beyond the area of the slot. The material is molded through these additonal penetrations in effect mechanically locking the grommet to the plate.

We do not rely on adhesion, or bonding in any way to retain the elastomer.

To remove a grommet takes time, and a sharp razor knife.


Regards,



Tobin

 

[jetfixer]

Tobin, Keep up the good work. Innovation is what keeps us moving forward. Very interesting information. I do not have one of your plates, but dove a couple weekends ago with someone who does. Very nice indeed! As for the concern that the inserts may seperate from the plate, i'm sure under normal warranty procedures, it could be replaced.

 

[Henryville]

Why would we deburr the slots we overmold? As I already stated we do deburr all the other penetrations. Doing 8 more slots while at the deburring bench would not be a big deal, but is pointless. If you remove the grommet, the slots will be to wide, and too long to be useful. Remember the slots in question have to be oversized to allow room for the elastomer.



I suspect you are not really congradulating me, but are really attempting to imply that the gromments will rot and fall out.

The particular TPE (thermoplastic elastomer) we use has been in widespread use for 30 years or so. Commonly used for things like air induction boots (that's the flexible rubber thing between the air cleaner and the throttle body under the hoods of some cars), CV boots (that's the cover over the constant velocity boots on most front wheel drive cars) and for window guide rails in many vehicles.

The resin manufacturer, knowing which vehicles employed their compounds did a study where they recovered CV boots, and window rails from old junked cars. These items were ground up, and used to mold new test samples. These test samples performed almost like samples made from virgin material. It's normal for some small lost of performance to be evidenced just from grinding and remelting. Some samples were over 25 years old.

The conditions under the hood of most cars, or at the CV boot level is nasty, hot dirty, etc. Window guide rails are subjest to lots of UV exposure. If the elastomer we use performs in these environs then I'm confident that it will work OK in the corner of a Scuba BackPlate.

Seperate from the Substrate? How? There are additional small penetrations around each grommet, i.e. just beyond the area of the slot. The material is molded through these additonal penetrations in effect mechanically locking the grommet to the plate.

We do not rely on adhesion, or bonding in any way to retain the elastomer.

To remove a grommet takes time, and a sharp razor knife.


Regards,



Tobin

Good lord, if you are going to bother responding to a post why don't you also take the time to read it?

To you and the other folks here who have decided I was "attacking" your product, would you please look back at what I wrote? Did I ever say that the grommets were going to fall out, wear out, rot, melt, shrink, or fail in any way? Or if they ever would? No, I did not.

I said you did not deburr the hole in the plate for the harness. You agree (and also point out that based on your design and manufacturing process it is not needed.)

I said it would be cheaper to put in the grommet than deburr, and you had some sarcastic reply about my knowledge of your manufacturing process. Based on having had to deburr a couple of other makers' sharp edged plates by hand and having seen but not being an expert in injection and other plastic molding, it seemed logical to me that this would be cheaper and produce less waste to be disposed of. And in the post above, I said if this was wrong I stood corrected.

Fine, you have found a more expensive and you assert superior way to protect the harness webbing, good for you and keep innovating.

I'm glad the resin is so awesome because as I said I have some of your products that I admire and use every dive so I'm glad they'll last a long time.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Good lord, if you are going to bother responding to a post why don't you also take the time to read it?

I can read quite well. My comprehension is pretty fair too. Words do mean things, and I select mine with care.

To you and the other folks here who have decided I was "attacking" your product,

Seems I'm not alone in this analysis...........

I said it would be cheaper to put in the grommet than deburr

You have no way of knowing if this true or not, but this did not prevent you from making a definitive statment.....

Based on having had to deburr a couple of other makers' sharp edged plates by hand and having seen but not being an expert

I reserve my definitive statments to those areas in which I am an expert. When debating other subjects I'm careful to couch my responses as speculation

it seemed logical to me that this would be cheaper and produce less waste to be disposed of.

What "seemed logical" to you seemed like a display of ignorance to me, and apparently to others....

I'm glad the resin is so awesome because as I said I have some of your products that I admire and use every dive so I'm glad they'll last a long time.

I'm glad to hear you like them.


Henryville, I think long and hard before I respond in the manner I have in this thread. I'd rather have freinds and allies than enemies.

Your motives may have been pure, only you know for sure, but I'm willing to accept that they are.

That doesn't change the fact that words mean things, and you might well consider your selection.

Regards,


Tobin

 

[Blackwood]

Tobin,
I'm all for having manufacturers engaged in the board but there are times when standing back and learning from the discussion might be (have been.....) a wise move.

We have already had an extensive discussion offline and you are clearly not an unbiased consumer here so please try not to derail what was shaping up to be a useful and educational thread.

Thanks

I disagree.

Though this thread was derailed by a BP (rather than wing) discussion, I appreciate the clarification of misinformation. As a consumer, it's easy to look at a "plastic" part and think "weakness," "cost savings," etc.. Since we all know that Tobin posts on these boards and most likely pays close attention to discussions regarding his products, when things are said about his design intent, if he doesn't step in, one must assume that he does not disagree (and thus that the statement about his design intent is true).


If someone were to say, for example, that "DSS Plates are uncomforatable," sure, he should stay out of it, because that's a subjective opinion. In this case, I think it would have been most unwise of him to NOT interject. I consider his interjection to be a service to me, a consumer.

 

[keelhaul123]

Having dived both U-shaped bladders (Ranger and Tusa BCs), then gone to an O-shaped bladder, the O-shaped bladder is easier to dump when horizontal. When in a horizontal position, the rear dump is the most effective dump. When using it with a U-shaped bladder, you have to roll to the side to dump from both sides of the wing otherwise you have one side with air and one side without. With an O-shaped bladder it vents from both sides equally.

Seems like a Non- issue to me. I have a Diverite Trek wing which is a U, and it dumps fine from a horizontal position. It has a Pull dump, an lp hose dump, and a dump on the right rear diver side wing. As far as I can see, that should be enough if one is trimmed right and knows what they are doing!

 

[jonnythan]

Seems like a Non- issue to me. I have a Diverite Trek wing which is a U, and it dumps fine from a horizontal position. It has a Pull dump, an lp hose dump, and a dump on the right rear diver side wing. As far as I can see, that should be enough if one is trimmed right and knows what they are doing!

Many wings do not have pull dumps, making the pull dump a non-option.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Seems like a Non- issue to me. I have a Diverite Trek wing which is a U, and it dumps fine from a horizontal position. It has a Pull dump, an lp hose dump, and a dump on the right rear diver side wing. As far as I can see, that should be enough if one is trimmed right and knows what they are doing!

I used to own a Rec wing, and felt the same way ... until I tried an Oxycheq wing. Once I had my own personal experience as a basis for comparison, I purchased the Oxycheq wing and sold the Rec wing. It's like the difference between driving a Ford Taurus vs. a BMW 320i ... they both work fine, but the latter just handles better.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[WaterDawg]

I spoke w/ the folks at Oxycheq today. They've got a doubles wing thats "o " shaped, called the "razor" All I know is that its #50 and according to them very sreamlined. But does not have an outer shell.