Two fatalities in Monterey

[MXGratefulDiver]

I hate 3 person teams. Twice as many people for me to watch closely, more likely for any one to think a second has the third covered well when not, etc.

Three-person teams are easy if you're mentally committed to our dive instead of my dive ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[tddfleming]

so, we're just assuming a lack of good training and figuring out how to train diver in its absence now?

and something that i think has been frustrating me immensely in reading this thread is that i actually don't see the point of speculating about the details of this particular incident as it applies to the deceased and what could be done better. i also gave up on trying to fix diving training a long time ago, and i'm uninterested in trying to blame or defend any instruction they had in this thread. maybe they got insufficient training, maybe they got really good training and this is just a case of the inherent lack of control that instructors have over their students after they're released into the wilds -- train enough divers and some of them are going to die -- the instructors in this case could have just got very tragically unlucky.

all that doesn't matter to me.

as far as lessons learned, what do we, as trained divers at varying stages of experience take away from this _for ourselves_? and i've already mentioned my opinion on the takeaways multiple times.

anyone reading this who is a certified diver with little experience probably should take away that they're very inexperienced and unprepared by their training, and should be searching for better answers. they've already been through the basic OW training at the very least, so trying to fix OW training is going to be pointless for the majority of the readers of this thread. encouraging divers to get better at useful basic skills is something that we could choose to do though.

i don't get the fixation on the specifics of the incident, and i don't get the fixation on trying to take a broken OW training program and patch over it to just make sure they teach ditching weight belts. they're dead and you can't fix that. OW instruction is broken, and if you'd like to fix that start looking at the GUE OW program that everyone ridicules as a start. what is left that is fixable? that's our own personal level of preparedness.

Lamont has a good point, shoulda, woulda, coulda does not fix this. We can debate until the cows come home, but what is done is done. I do think some very bad decisions were made with this trip. Too many students, not enough adults, poor conditions all equals bad outcome.

I also agree the inst. is broken. I knew this before this point in time. I have also taken it upon myself to fix what I feel was bad inst on our part. I think if we as inexperienced divers can change something, it has to begin with us, as we will never be able to take on the whole system. I know myself and failure is not really an option. My dad did not let me just give up and also taught me to never just accept what is handed to me. I have my OW, AOW and Nav, do I feel prepared when sh#$ hits, not really. I decided a while back and decided to do the Primer class as a start of better getting myself under control and fixing the problem starting with me. As that is all I can fix.

 

[tddfleming]

Sure they're kids ... but at their age, almost every kid is driving a car. Driving a car is far more dangerous than scuba diving ... by virtually any statistic you care to measure. Yet we think nothing of giving kids this age responsibility for piloting a multi-ton missile in public.

Life is a risk ... and at some point you have to turn them loose and let them start discovering how to deal with it.

As far as the speculation about their gas not being on ... I don't think so. If their gas had not been turned on, they would've been found with full tanks ... not empty ones.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Unless, in all the excitement and going ons, they received used tanks and never checked them before jumping in.

 

[Lobzilla]

Unless, in all the excitement and going ons, they received used tanks and never checked them before jumping in.

Believe it or not, a friend had an insta-buddy that did the second dive with the first tank. :shocked2: They both made it up safely from 100' but, needless to say, my friend was a little pi$$ed. Since I heard this story I did buddy SPG checks before each splash. (Now, I use GUE-EDGE: goal,unified team,equipment,exposure,deco,gas mgmt,environment; works from OW to cave. Other checks are listed here)

 

[DandyDon]

Believe it or not, a friend had an insta-buddy that did the second dive with the first tank. :shocked2: They both made it up safely from 100' but, needless to say, my friend was a little pi$$ed. Since I heard this story I did buddy SPG checks before each splash. (Now, it is GUE-EDGE: goal,unified team,equipment,exposure,deco,gas mgmt, environment. Works from OW to cave)

I bet he checks his bud's spgs before diving now, which we all should.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Remind us which agency that is Jim?

Scuba Educators International and now CMAS as well.

 

[Thalassamania]

so, we're just assuming a lack of good training and figuring out how to train diver in its absence now?

Given the incident and the fact that it was a very early (if not first) dive, the assumption of a lack of good training (despite Bob's testimony) is not unreasonable. As to how to train divers in the absence of good training ... I bow to your clear identification of the problem and withdrawn my suggestion.

and something that i think has been frustrating me immensely in reading this thread is that i actually don't see the point of speculating about the details of this particular incident as it applies to the deceased and what could be done better.

That is (should be) the entire point of discussing accidents and incidents.

i also gave up on trying to fix diving training a long time ago, and i'm uninterested in trying to blame or defend any instruction they had in this thread. maybe they got insufficient training, maybe they got really good training and this is just a case of the inherent lack of control that instructors have over their students after they're released into the wilds -- train enough divers and some of them are going to die -- the instructors in this case could have just got very tragically unlucky.

I've had no experience with problems occurring due to an "inherent lack of control that instructors have over their students after they're released into the wilds," so I can not comment on that concept except to say that, clearly, it does not occur amongst all training models.

all that doesn't matter to me.

as far as lessons learned, what do we, as trained divers at varying stages of experience take away from this _for ourselves_? and i've already mentioned my opinion on the takeaways multiple times.

I see nothing to be learned here that would change any of my current procedures.

anyone reading this who is a certified diver with little experience probably should take away that they're very inexperienced and unprepared by their training, and should be searching for better answers. they've already been through the basic OW training at the very least, so trying to fix OW training is going to be pointless for the majority of the readers of this thread. encouraging divers to get better at useful basic skills is something that we could choose to do though.

as you know I recommend to all to either seek training that is based on the 100 hr. Scripps model, or Fundies, or Essentials, or something similar. It appears that our suggestions either fall, in the majority, on deaf ears or are not practical for most folks in terms of availability.

i don't get the fixation on the specifics of the incident, and i don't get the fixation on trying to take a broken OW training program and patch over it to just make sure they teach ditching weight belts. they're dead and you can't fix that. OW instruction is broken, and if you'd like to fix that start looking at the GUE OW program that everyone ridicules as a start. what is left that is fixable? that's our own personal level of preparedness.

I agree.

Knowing who they are ... having been diving with them before ... having shared conversation about how we teach, what we believe makes a competent diver. These are diligent people.

I understand you don't believe this could ever happen to one of your students, Thal ... and I hope it never does, because it's an instructor's worst nightmare ... but people are fallible ... teens more than most.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

You are quite right that this could never happen to one of my students ... if only because they are all above 30 feet for their first 12 O/W dives following training (not to mention a slew of other reasons).

Yes, this is an instructor's worst nightmare, and as such I really don't understand why most instructors do not demand more of their students and demand that their agencies demand more of them.

As critical as I am about run-of-the-mill scuba instruction, at this point it appears that a massive inability to plan and execute a dive was the cause for this accident.

To what degree the students or the teachers were at fault for this remains to be seen.

That it does, that it does.

Absolutely crazy to take that group on that dive. The Navy SEALS would not have taken a group with so few dives on a similar mission/excursion.

False.

 

[Ayisha]

Unless, in all the excitement and going ons, they received used tanks and never checked them before jumping in.

Well, I have seen people do that a few times, especially with rentals or when you leave tanks to be filled and return later to pick them up, and they're not filled. I've also seen people start to switch tanks on a boat, get distracted, and complete the switch with the same tank. Usually, this gets caught before diving, but it could happen...

One time our whole boat was given our used tanks back unfilled. My buddy and I brought in our tanks to be filled one afternoon after diving and we were told to put them in a specific area to be filled. We went back the next morning to take them to the boat and we were told they were ready. I noticed that it was exactly where I had left it, a little tank with cute stickers was still beside it the same way and my buddy's tanks were right beside mine exactly the way we left them. I asked if they were sure they were filled and they said yes because they were in the filled section. I asked to borrow a reg and sure enough, both my tanks and my buddy's were at our ending pressures. They filled them and we went to the boat. We mentioned what had happened to us, thinking we were the only ones. Most of the divers were set up, but apparently no one had turned on their gas yet. Everyone turned on their tanks to check and sure enough, most had not been filled. The boat waited while most of the divers told the shop off and got actual fills. A staff member had told everyone to put their tanks in a specific spot to get filled, but it was the section for the filled tanks. It could have been a serious mistake if even one person didn't check and/or couldn't get their valve on fast enough, especially if making a negative drop.

 

[Scott L]

Since you seem to know how many dives they had, care to share with us? 5? 10? 50? 100? At this point we don't know, until someone shares facts.

These are the same conditions I learned to dive in, except we shore dove and had to make it back to our exit point so navigation was important. My gal was taking her open water class (Private instructor) this past weekend in the same conditions along with about 50 other students.

I would venture to say, on average, less than 15. Young, new divers in an unfamiliar environment at night no less. Would you have organized such a trip?

 

[Ayisha]

It was a day dive; we don't know how many dives they had; we don't know how young they were when they began diving or how experienced they were; and we don't know how familiar they were with the area.