Two fatalities in Monterey

[MXGratefulDiver]

You are quite right that this could never happen to one of my students ... if only because they are all above 30 feet for their first 12 O/W dives following training (not to mention a slew of other reasons).

Yes, this is an instructor's worst nightmare, and as such I really don't understand why most instructors do not demand more of their students and demand that their agencies demand more of them.

So tell me Thal ... when was the last time you trained 16, 17 year old males?

Like it or not, they come up with some ideas sometimes that would never occur to an adult ... and as soon as there's opportunity, they "experiment" with them.

And FWIW ... I've known people who died on scuba in less than 30 feet of water ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I would venture to say, on average, less than 15. Young, new divers in an unfamiliar environment at night no less. Would you have organized such a trip?

If this is a typical high school program I'd venture to say that these students have been certified since sometime last fall. Any guesstimate at how many dives they've done since then is purely a WAG. The news reports state that the accident occurred late morning, so I don't know where you got the impression this was a night dive.

Would I have organized such a trip? It would depend on way more information that I have available ... but having worked with young people on a number of activities over the years, I can say that there's way riskier ways for a teen to get themselves in trouble than scuba diving ... and given the potential positives of teaching a young person something about responsibility ... yeah, probably I'd organize such a trip.

I don't think any of us have enough information to say that what happened was anything other than a tragic accident. Kids have accidents. I've known several over the course of my lifetime who were good kids who ended up dead over a momentary lapse of judgment. Looking back on some of the things I did at that age, it's a wonder I ever made it past my teen years ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Scott L]

If this is a typical high school program I'd venture to say that these students have been certified since sometime last fall. Any guesstimate at how many dives they've done since then is purely a WAG. The news reports state that the accident occurred late morning, so I don't know where you got the impression this was a night dive.

Would I have organized such a trip? It would depend on way more information that I have available ... but having worked with young people on a number of activities over the years, I can say that there's way riskier ways for a teen to get themselves in trouble than scuba diving ... and given the potential positives of teaching a young person something about responsibility ... yeah, probably I'd organize such a trip.

I don't think any of us have enough information to say that what happened was anything other than a tragic accident. Kids have accidents. I've known several over the course of my lifetime who were good kids who ended up dead over a momentary lapse of judgment. Looking back on some of the things I did at that age, it's a wonder I ever made it past my teen years ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Progressive training methodology prevents accidents. Once again, I doubt the Navy would have progressed so soon with older, bigger and stronger divers.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Progressive training methodology [-]prevents [/-]reduces accidents. Once again, I doubt the Navy would have progressed so soon with older, bigger and stronger divers.

Fixed it for ya ... as long as there are humans involved, accidents are always possible. Or are you suggesting that no one ever died during Navy training ???

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Jax]

Fixed it for ya ... as long as there are humans involved, accidents are always possible. Or are you suggesting that no one ever died during Navy training ???

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Thanks for that, Bob. I think people forget that there will always be human error. "If you try to make something foolproof, only a fool will want to use it." I cannot count the number of knee-jerk reactions as the government tries to prevent every stinking accident . . . it just cannot be done.

We have a lovely, curvy road near here, and every year there is a horrendous accident because some youngsters have more P & V than sense. Every year there are cries to close it because of its 'danger'.

You just cannot legislate a fix to inattention and lack of awareness, no matter how hard you try.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

I would venture to say, on average, less than 15. Young, new divers in an unfamiliar environment at night no less. Would you have organized such a trip?

It was a day dive; we don't know how many dives they had; we don't know how young they were when they began diving or how experienced they were; and we don't know how familiar they were with the area.

The news reports state that the accident occurred late morning, so I don't know where you got the impression this was a night dive.

In the Carson City School District's press release on Monday, school officials reported that the victims had successfully completed 2 dives earlier in the Monterey area -- one dive on Friday evening and another on Saturday morning. The accident occurred on the third dive of the trip.

Perhaps Scott L was referring to the fact that organizers had incorporated a night dive into trip-planning.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

In the Carson City School District's press release on Monday, school officials reported that the victims had successfully completed 2 dives earlier in the Monterey area -- one dive on Friday evening and another on Saturday morning. The accident occurred on the third dive of the trip.

Perhaps Scott L was referring to the fact that organizers had incorporated a night dive into trip-planning.

Two points to make ...

- First, newspapers don't always get the facts right (classic example ... "oxygen" tanks) ...

- Second, evening and night aren't necessarily the same thing this time of year. I did an evening dive last night that was completed about an hour before it got dark.

These are OW certified divers ... I HIGHLY doubt the staff took them on a night dive.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Scott L]

- Second, evening and night aren't necessarily the same thing this time of year. I did an evening dive last night that was completed about an hour before it got dark.

The transition time between day and night is termed dusk east of the Mississippi.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The transition time between day and night is termed dusk east of the Mississippi.

... but the reported term was "evening" ... which is not night, day, or dusk ... it's anytime between 6 PM and midnight. It gets dark around here about 8 PM these days ... which does not necessarily make an evening dive a night dive. A dive that concludes while it is still daylight is not a night dive.

Seems like some of y'all are groping for anything you can possibly use to make the organizers of this event look irresponsible.

Given the lack of facts to work with, I suggest you leave those tactics to other topics ... given the fatal outcome, I find it downright creepy ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[eponym]

I'm with Bob. I don't see how the nuances of twilight (dawn to sunrise, sunset to dusk), whether civil, naval, or astronomical, contribute to the theorizing on this incident.

I know we all wait for more concrete information. I appreciate all the posts that discuss the what-ifs and their implications for training. This is a big issue for me, every time I take candidates into open water. I have a cadre of Eagle Scouts cueing up for this right now, all of them younger than my oldest granddaughter.

-Bryan