Trimix in 100 dives

[dab]

I don't need you to share gas with me, which you could not do anyway.

Excellent post and I agree with most of what you said. I still think you are bit mis-informed on the ccr issues, and I mean that very respectfully. While diving on a ccr, I can share gas with an oc diver or receive gas from an oc diver should the need arise.

 

[Thalassamania]

Whether 100 dives is adequate experience for trimix diving depends upon the student's comfort, skill, knowledge, intelligence, maturity, psychological make-up, previous training, experience, diving environment combined with the skill and thoroughness of the trimix instructor.

I'm not arguing for or against a certain number of dives, I'm advocating knowing what your other team members have done and not finding that out after the dives.

For example, a GUE Fundamentals graduate can move into a GUE Tech 1 Trimix course the day after completing GUE-F and be diving Nitrox32, Trimix 30/30, Trimix 21/35 and Trimix 18/45 to 150 feet. A well-trained diver with the ability to control buoyancy and ascents, do valve shut-downs on the run, multi-task and dive in a unified team at 120 - 130 feet on mix is far better off than most recreational open water or advanced open water divers doing 120 - 130 foot wall dives in the tropics.

better than MOST recreational open water or advanced open water divers ... that's not really saying anyting, is it?

Such dives occur on a daily basis. The recreational divers and recreational instructors doing these warm water wall dives are exposing themselves to denser breathing gases that will increase the risk of CO2 problems and exacerbate narcosis or risk O2 toxicity by diving Nitrox32 to those depths.

There is no empirical data to support your opinion on increased narcosis.

Plus, they have less training, a false sense of security from being in a loose team and most likely an inadequate gas supply. Given the same circumstances moving a diver away from the norm and moving to trimix training is a bonus. The diver will have better gases, better planning and gas management, better teamwork, decreased risk of oxygen toxicity, CO2 toxicity and narcosis.

Yes, but have you ever found out after making a series of big dives that your fellow team member was a relative newbie that while well trained was probably not yet ready to carry the full load if something went wrong?

The gas isn't really the problem. The problem with trimix diving is that it automatically makes us think of dives that are deep, dark and dangerous.

As I've often said, "breathe in, breathe out, control your depth and time." No big deal, just like every other kind of diving. But switches, especially if there's a problem ... that's another story.

When we think of such dives we start questioning the amount of experience that one needs to safely engage in these more challenging dives. Trimix may be utilized in shallower waters than we normally think would require trimix. When to switch to trimix is subjective. One of my friends is adamant that any dive deeper than 80 feet is a trimix dive. If we use 80 feet as the demarcation line for safe deeper diving, every diver venturing beyond 80 feet should be on trimix. That would be nearly every diver who isn't a newb and many newbs too! Imagine how much safer going below 80 feet would be if the divers going there were held to the higher training standards and benefits of diving trimix. Are we more comfortable with divers building experience below 80 feet on air or on trimix? I think most of us would agree that new divers would only benefit and be safer divers if trained more rigorously and encouraged to breathe a lighter, easier breathing gas with less ppO2 at a given depth compared to using nitrox or air.

We're talking about dives below 200 feet, hypoxic mixes.

So, what's the real problem? Probably just the perception that trimix diving is difficult, deep, dark, dangerous and far more challenging? Remember when nitrox was a "death gas" and definitely for technical divers? Now, most every diver begins using nitrox soon after OW certfication or even along with initial OW certification.

...

At the end of the day, each individual is responsible for deciding when and why they are moving up the certification totem pole and good instructors will insure that the diver is ready for that level of diving in the environment in which they are being trained. The number of dives a diver has can only be a small gauge to a diver's experience in the environment in which a diver dives or is trained to dive. The more diversity a diver has, the more adaptable that diver can be and the more experience a diver can draw from to make decisions. One such decision is when a diver is ready or needs to use trimix whether 100 dives or 1000 dives.

I disagree, it's not up to the other guy to decide when and why they're going to make a dive with me ... it's up to me (and vice versa, of course). That's my only point here. I'm can see how someone could find themselves in the situation of diving with a team member of unknown background, and I'm suggesting that's a bad idea and should be avoided.

 

[Rhone Man]

I seem to recall somewhere some captain who lead charters to the Andrea Doria complaining that "in the good old days" you needed lots of experience, and now people are using trimix "within 100 dives", the implication being that relative rookies now had the necessary tools to go out and get killed (if I find the link, I'll edit this post to include it).

I fully accept that someone can become an excellent diver in less than 100 dives, just the same way that someone can be an excellent car driver after only holding a driving license for a year (and the converse being true as well of course). But as a rule of thumb, experience counts, and the more the better.

Edit: Didn't find the link, but if you Google "100 dives" "trimix" "doria" you come up with some interesting stuff, including one crazy b&*^#$@* who dived the Doria after only 50 dives.

 

[JeffG]

I seem to recall somewhere some captain who lead charters to the Andrea Doria complaining that "in the good old days" you needed lots of experience, and now people are using trimix "within 100 dives", the implication being that relative rookies now had the necessary tools to go out and get killed (if I find the link, I'll edit this post to include it).

I fully accept that someone can become an excellent diver in less than 100 dives, just the same way that someone can be an excellent car driver after only holding a driving license for a year (and the converse being true as well of course). But as a rule of thumb, experience counts, and the more the better.

The problem with the "100 dives" issue, is that in the past the training didn't exist...period.


Now it does and the training agencies had to attach a number to it.

I know that when I was at 100, I wasn't ready. By 200, I started the path.

If someone has a good mentor/instructor the number of dives shouldn't be that much of an issue. Quality vs Quantity. Plus...we all have to start somewhere. Does doing 300-500 rec dives get you prepared for deco dives?

We were all rookies at some point.

 

[Blackwood]

-snip-

So, what's the real problem? Probably just the perception that trimix diving is difficult, deep, dark, dangerous and far more challenging? Remember when nitrox was a "death gas" and definitely for technical divers? Now, most every diver begins using nitrox soon after OW certfication or even along with initial OW certification.

-snip-

Good post. I agree with you, but I will note that in the original post, "Advanced Trimix" was listed as the course in question. Generally, that's hypoxic (i.e. not the 30/30, 21/35, 18/45 you mentioned).

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Good post. I agree with you, but I will note that in the original post, "Advanced Trimix" was listed as the course in question. Generally, that's hypoxic (i.e. not the 30/30, 21/35, 18/45 you mentioned).

To illustrate the point in question about experience, I have a B.A. in English from Marywood University and I have read millions of words from the time I started reading "See Spot Run" nearly 40 years ago. Apparently, you and Thal have corrected a "mistake" on my part since I interpreted the thread as being open to trimix in 100 dives and not just advanced trimix. My Reading and English grades in school, college, and on the verbal sections of the SAT and GRE tests have been excellent. Yet, I may have botched this thread where people with less education and experience in understanding and reading the English language have performed better. Perhaps even a 5th grader could have done a better job than I did? Sometimes experienced people are more complacent than a student or someone who is relatively new to an endeavor.

Do you think you'd be better off in an emergency situation with someone with whom you've just taken a course and been repeatedly tested, or with an old salt who has made hundreds of trimix dives without incident? This, too, is subjective. Personally, I feel more comfortable with students who have just been tested and with instructors who keep their skills honed through teaching. I've had situations in which experienced cave and trimix divers didn't know how to react when things were going wrong.

 

[Thalassamania]

Whom you'd be more comfortable with is a matter of personal choice. Personally, I'd be most comfortable with a reasonably experienced diver whom I had dove with a lot in the past and had recently trained.

All I'm saying is that you need to have the data and consciously make the choice, not discover when the excrement hits the exhaust that your teammate is not up to the dive. Wonder is feeling that I like to have when a Giant Tuna swims by, not a word I want to use concerning my teammates' reaction to an emergency.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

I want to add that "experience" is relative to the situation. If an OOG situation occurs, a student probably has more recent experience in dealing with the situation. I was entering Upper Orange Grove with two highly experienced technical divers when I had a problem with a primary regulator that was hitting the water for the first time after being rebuilt. As I flashed "Emergency" with the light, the first diver who was incredibly experienced with advanced trimix dives, rebreather dives, and sidemount dives could only look dumbfoundedly at the reel in his hand since he was so focused on completing a tie-off. The second diver was so intent on shooting video that he was waiting for the first diver to act so he could film it. Yet, if I pull an OOG on my students soon after a course I'll get an immediate action of regulator donation.

In some situations such as troubleshooting a rebreather at depth, a rebreather student might not be as insightful as an experienced rebreather diver who has developed a real feel for the unit and the problems and idiosynracies. In that case, an experienced diver may be the best buddy.

When it comes to navigating a dive site such as a shipwreck and running a dive profile that will yield the most exploration with the greatest amount of time, the diver with the most experience diving that wreck regardless of total experience may often be the best leader.

Choosing the right buddy depends upon the scenario, the environment and the dive factors. When it comes to training, I'd feel pretty comfortable at 200 feet with a GUE Tech 2 diver at 100 dives and with 100 dives it is possible to be a Tech 2 diver. I know the quality of training the diver needed to reach that level and I know the diver is procedurally proficient. Diving with an IANTD or TDI diver with 100 dives at 200 feet would only be comfortable if I knew the instructor who trained the diver. This is because of GUE's quality control for a normal diver. However, I know TDI and IANTD instructors who produce truly exceptional students.

 

[dab]

I want to add that "experience" is relative to the situation. If an OOG situation occurs, a student probably has more recent experience in dealing with the situation. I was entering Upper Orange Grove with two highly experienced technical divers when I had a problem with a primary regulator that was hitting the water for the first time after being rebuilt. As I flashed "Emergency" with the light, the first diver who was incredibly experienced with advanced trimix dives, rebreather dives, and sidemount dives could only look dumbfoundedly at the reel in his hand since he was so focused on completing a tie-off. The second diver was so intent on shooting video that he was waiting for the first diver to act so he could film it. Yet, if I pull an OOG on my students soon after a course I'll get an immediate action of regulator donation.

In some situations such as troubleshooting a rebreather at depth, a rebreather student might not be as insightful as an experienced rebreather diver who has developed a real feel for the unit and the problems and idiosynracies. In that case, an experienced diver may be the best buddy.

When it comes to navigating a dive site such as a shipwreck and running a dive profile that will yield the most exploration with the greatest amount of time, the diver with the most experience diving that wreck regardless of total experience may often be the best leader.

Choosing the right buddy depends upon the scenario, the environment and the dive factors. When it comes to training, I'd feel pretty comfortable at 200 feet with a GUE Tech 2 diver at 100 dives and with 100 dives it is possible to be a Tech 2 diver. I know the quality of training the diver needed to reach that level and I know the diver is procedurally proficient. Diving with an IANTD or TDI diver with 100 dives at 200 feet would only be comfortable if I knew the instructor who trained the diver. This is because of GUE's quality control for a normal diver. However, I know TDI and IANTD instructors who produce truly exceptional students.

Again, very well stated.

 

[Blackwood]

To illustrate the point in question about experience, I have a B.A. in English from Marywood University and I have read millions of words from the time I started reading "See Spot Run" nearly 40 years ago. Apparently, you and Thal have corrected a "mistake" on my part since I interpreted the thread as being open to trimix in 100 dives and not just advanced trimix. My Reading and English grades in school, college, and on the verbal sections of the SAT and GRE tests have been excellent. Yet, I may have botched this thread where people with less education and experience in understanding and reading the English language have performed better. Perhaps even a 5th grader could have done a better job than I did? Sometimes experienced people are more complacent than a student or someone who is relatively new to an endeavor.

My post had nothing to do with comprehension. I don't know why you interpreted it as if I was correcting you. I was just pointing out that there is a discrepancy between the Title and the Post, and since your reply included specific mention of rec 'triox' as opposed to hypoxic 'trimix', I thought I'd point it out in case you wanted to clarify your point.

You did, and I tend to agree.