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Thanks Jeff. Hm ... Jeff the peacemaker, will wonders never cease?
Trimix in 100 dives
- Thread starter jtivat
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JeffG
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I must be having a bad day.
We are getting off topic again.
FWIW, I've never had more than 2 students in a tech class with the exception of adv trimix. The instructors I've had were careful in who they allowed in the class, and the courses were excellent.
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Well ... it's not that far off. I guess I don't trust someone else to choose my buddy for an operational dive, regardless of how excellent the courses they teach.
I'm not suggesting that anyone should choose a buddy for another person for an operational dive, be it deep or otherwise. An individual should only dive with someone they are comfortable with, and that critera will vary from diver to diver. However, in a class setting, it is a completely different setting.
Had I gone through the course with someone such as JT described in his original post I likely would have felt comfortable to continue diving with him based on my in-water experience with him. Had I just walked on the boat and knew nothing about him other than he just finished his class or the number of dives under his belt, well thats another story.
Had I gone through the course with someone such as JT described in his original post I likely would have felt comfortable to continue diving with him based on my in-water experience with him. Had I just walked on the boat and knew nothing about him other than he just finished his class or the number of dives under his belt, well thats another story.
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I understand what you're saying, and I can see how just about anyone could fall into the same situation. The problem is that most folks would continue to dive with anyone who was smart enough to learn what the course taught and who exhibited good attitude, trim and buoyancy ... but it is very possible that they lack the experience to respond to an emergency. Checking quals should be like zero based budgeting, start from scratch every time, take nothing for granted, make no assumptions. Just the way I see it and operate. It doen't hurt my feelings, and if it hurts the feelings of a potential team member, well ... too bad, that's likely a team member I'm better off without.
There are so many variables here. When you are talking about staged decompression dives, I think one has to look at each situation independently, account for the variables and make a decision based on their comfort level. Send a Florida diver to the Great Lakes. Maybe they have a 1000 dives, in warm water, and good viz. All the sudden they have a problem in Lake Huron, their hands are freezing, it's harder to move with all the undergarments on, and they can't see beyond the beam of thier 10w light cause it's too dark. My money is on the guy with only 100 dives, but in those types of conditions, who has had good training. Conversely, send a Great Lakes diver to Florida and the first time he has an issue in a ripping current his ability to deal with it may not be the same as the the local with many fewer dives but many in high current conditions.
I certainly agree that one should make no assumptions and check everything carefully. I guess my point is where do you draw the line and what critera does one use to establish the line? I personally ascribe to the view that if I have a problem underwater, I better be prepared to handle it myself and not be dependent on anyone else.
I certainly agree that one should make no assumptions and check everything carefully. I guess my point is where do you draw the line and what critera does one use to establish the line? I personally ascribe to the view that if I have a problem underwater, I better be prepared to handle it myself and not be dependent on anyone else.
nereas
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Great analysis.
Teams of deco-divers normally have worked together for quite some time. And if a new diver is going to join the group, he/she is normally taken through a number of easier deco dives first, with the group, and given the easiest of easy tasks.
Since personalities vary so much from person to person, I do not think there is a magic number for dives, whether 100, 200, 500, or 1000 that would tell you anything. A flaming A/H with 1000 dives may be a greater liability to the group than a newly certified techdiver with only 100. Either way, I would not trust either one based on number of dives alone.
So there is indeed nothing magical about 100 or 1000 dives.
There is also the issue of compatibility versus combativeness. For example, I too believe in complete self-reliance. That is why I use 2 computers mounted next to each other, so I can check to see that they are giving the same readings. Someone else might interpret this as excess clutter. Their opinion is fine with me, as long as they keep their opinion to themselves, and not pester me with it.
I have a friend who always dives with 2 SPGs mounted on his twin tanks, whereas I use only one. Whatever makes him feel better is fine with me.
On the issue of CCRs, if you are a CCR diver and you want to dive with your CCR, as my buddy, that is fine with me. There are no issues since my O/C system of twin tanks is completely redundant, concerning backgas and deco bottles (I normally use from 2 to 4). I don't need you to share gas with me, which you could not do anyway.
However I would never myself use a CCR. These things are widow makers. But on the boat and during the dive, I would keep my opinion to myself.
As an O/C diver buddied with a CCR diver, I know that I would have to watch your every move, in case you stopped moving, which could happen at any instant. Or so reality has sadly taught us.
Whether 100 dives is adequate experience for trimix diving depends upon the student's comfort, skill, knowledge, intelligence, maturity, psychological make-up, previous training, experience, diving environment combined with the skill and thoroughness of the trimix instructor.
For example, a GUE Fundamentals graduate can move into a GUE Tech 1 Trimix course the day after completing GUE-F and be diving Nitrox32, Trimix 30/30, Trimix 21/35 and Trimix 18/45 to 150 feet. A well-trained diver with the ability to control buoyancy and ascents, do valve shut-downs on the run, multi-task and dive in a unified team at 120 - 130 feet on mix is far better off than most recreational open water or advanced open water divers doing 120 - 130 foot wall dives in the tropics. Such dives occur on a daily basis. The recreational divers and recreational instructors doing these warm water wall dives are exposing themselves to denser breathing gases that will increase the risk of CO2 problems and exacerbate narcosis or risk O2 toxicity by diving Nitrox32 to those depths. Plus, they have less training, a false sense of security from being in a loose team and most likely an inadequate gas supply. Given the same circumstances moving a diver away from the norm and moving to trimix training is a bonus. The diver will have better gases, better planning and gas management, better teamwork, decreased risk of oxygen toxicity, CO2 toxicity and narcosis.
The gas isn't really the problem. The problem with trimix diving is that it automatically makes us think of dives that are deep, dark and dangerous. When we think of such dives we start questioning the amount of experience that one needs to safely engage in these more challenging dives. Trimix may be utilized in shallower waters than we normally think would require trimix. When to switch to trimix is subjective. One of my friends is adamant that any dive deeper than 80 feet is a trimix dive. If we use 80 feet as the demarcation line for safe deeper diving, every diver venturing beyond 80 feet should be on trimix. That would be nearly every diver who isn't a newb and many newbs too! Imagine how much safer going below 80 feet would be if the divers going there were held to the higher training standards and benefits of diving trimix. Are we more comfortable with divers building experience below 80 feet on air or on trimix? I think most of us would agree that new divers would only benefit and be safer divers if trained more rigorously and encouraged to breathe a lighter, easier breathing gas with less ppO2 at a given depth compared to using nitrox or air.
So, what's the real problem? Probably just the perception that trimix diving is difficult, deep, dark, dangerous and far more challenging? Remember when nitrox was a "death gas" and definitely for technical divers? Now, most every diver begins using nitrox soon after OW certfication or even along with initial OW certification.
I think the real concern in most divers' minds is in regard to the added challenge of trimix diving due to task loading or conditions of the diving environment. Task loading is something that should be worked out in training. If a diver cannot manage his or her equipment proficiently the instructor would not or should not pass that individual. Assuming the individual is proficient and can handle all skills at 100 dives, I believe that most divers are then concerned with how much experience one has in 100 dives to take on more challenging environments. This again is subjective. Some divers and some technical divers will never enter cold water or low visibility. You can grow up on an island and become a great cave and deep diver and never know what 55°F water feels like. Or, you can start diving in an area in which you are very comfortable with cold, dark and deep by dive 100.
Any time a diver ventures into new environments it is best to work ones way up to more and more challenging dives. For example, I went on a cave diving trip with a buddy to North Florida after we had been diving Bahamian caves for 2 months. She had done her NSS-CDS cave instructor internship in Florida and was extremely familiar with the Devil's System. Despite the fact that we had been doing long cave dives in the Bahamas almost daily, we decided to go into the ballroom at Ginnie Springs and just practice S-drills, valve drills, stage drops and deco switches. We then moved to more and more intense and longer dives in a 10 day period. Even at the cave instructor and trimix levels, smart divers build experience as they increase the challenge of depth and time.
Even trimix instructors from Florida may not be ready for the Andrea Doria and trimix instructors from New Jersey may not be ready for a dive on the Wilkes-Barre.
At the end of the day, each individual is responsible for deciding when and why they are moving up the certification totem pole and good instructors will insure that the diver is ready for that level of diving in the environment in which they are being trained. The number of dives a diver has can only be a small gauge to a diver's experience in the environment in which a diver dives or is trained to dive. The more diversity a diver has, the more adaptable that diver can be and the more experience a diver can draw from to make decisions. One such decision is when a diver is ready or needs to use trimix whether 100 dives or 1000 dives.
For example, a GUE Fundamentals graduate can move into a GUE Tech 1 Trimix course the day after completing GUE-F and be diving Nitrox32, Trimix 30/30, Trimix 21/35 and Trimix 18/45 to 150 feet. A well-trained diver with the ability to control buoyancy and ascents, do valve shut-downs on the run, multi-task and dive in a unified team at 120 - 130 feet on mix is far better off than most recreational open water or advanced open water divers doing 120 - 130 foot wall dives in the tropics. Such dives occur on a daily basis. The recreational divers and recreational instructors doing these warm water wall dives are exposing themselves to denser breathing gases that will increase the risk of CO2 problems and exacerbate narcosis or risk O2 toxicity by diving Nitrox32 to those depths. Plus, they have less training, a false sense of security from being in a loose team and most likely an inadequate gas supply. Given the same circumstances moving a diver away from the norm and moving to trimix training is a bonus. The diver will have better gases, better planning and gas management, better teamwork, decreased risk of oxygen toxicity, CO2 toxicity and narcosis.
The gas isn't really the problem. The problem with trimix diving is that it automatically makes us think of dives that are deep, dark and dangerous. When we think of such dives we start questioning the amount of experience that one needs to safely engage in these more challenging dives. Trimix may be utilized in shallower waters than we normally think would require trimix. When to switch to trimix is subjective. One of my friends is adamant that any dive deeper than 80 feet is a trimix dive. If we use 80 feet as the demarcation line for safe deeper diving, every diver venturing beyond 80 feet should be on trimix. That would be nearly every diver who isn't a newb and many newbs too! Imagine how much safer going below 80 feet would be if the divers going there were held to the higher training standards and benefits of diving trimix. Are we more comfortable with divers building experience below 80 feet on air or on trimix? I think most of us would agree that new divers would only benefit and be safer divers if trained more rigorously and encouraged to breathe a lighter, easier breathing gas with less ppO2 at a given depth compared to using nitrox or air.
So, what's the real problem? Probably just the perception that trimix diving is difficult, deep, dark, dangerous and far more challenging? Remember when nitrox was a "death gas" and definitely for technical divers? Now, most every diver begins using nitrox soon after OW certfication or even along with initial OW certification.
I think the real concern in most divers' minds is in regard to the added challenge of trimix diving due to task loading or conditions of the diving environment. Task loading is something that should be worked out in training. If a diver cannot manage his or her equipment proficiently the instructor would not or should not pass that individual. Assuming the individual is proficient and can handle all skills at 100 dives, I believe that most divers are then concerned with how much experience one has in 100 dives to take on more challenging environments. This again is subjective. Some divers and some technical divers will never enter cold water or low visibility. You can grow up on an island and become a great cave and deep diver and never know what 55°F water feels like. Or, you can start diving in an area in which you are very comfortable with cold, dark and deep by dive 100.
Any time a diver ventures into new environments it is best to work ones way up to more and more challenging dives. For example, I went on a cave diving trip with a buddy to North Florida after we had been diving Bahamian caves for 2 months. She had done her NSS-CDS cave instructor internship in Florida and was extremely familiar with the Devil's System. Despite the fact that we had been doing long cave dives in the Bahamas almost daily, we decided to go into the ballroom at Ginnie Springs and just practice S-drills, valve drills, stage drops and deco switches. We then moved to more and more intense and longer dives in a 10 day period. Even at the cave instructor and trimix levels, smart divers build experience as they increase the challenge of depth and time.
Even trimix instructors from Florida may not be ready for the Andrea Doria and trimix instructors from New Jersey may not be ready for a dive on the Wilkes-Barre.
At the end of the day, each individual is responsible for deciding when and why they are moving up the certification totem pole and good instructors will insure that the diver is ready for that level of diving in the environment in which they are being trained. The number of dives a diver has can only be a small gauge to a diver's experience in the environment in which a diver dives or is trained to dive. The more diversity a diver has, the more adaptable that diver can be and the more experience a diver can draw from to make decisions. One such decision is when a diver is ready or needs to use trimix whether 100 dives or 1000 dives.
Well stated.
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