To those considering an OW class...

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Air On:
Please excuse me as I only skimmed the posts but I didn't see this option listed...

How about adding a Diver Learners permit (like driving permit) that requires people with the shorter resort classes to be required to dive with advenced divers only?

This shouldn't impact the resorts who sponsor supervized dives anyhow, right? It would make them need to complete an expanded OW coarse to get the full OW certification.

So casual divers can use them on supervised vacation dives, Dive shops would be needed for the expanded OW classes more.

Sure a little more paper work and admin changes would be required, BUT... it would solve some big problems that are life threatening. I would change refresher classes into the second stage full OW certification class so that existing card holders are not stripped of their certifications, but simply upgraded when they renew or refresh...

Sound logical? No one is degraded and it allows for abriviated classes with new divers, as long as they are supervised, untill they get another class for full certification.

Or is that what the "Basic OW" and "Advance Diver" set up was supposed to provide?

For PADI that's the Scuba Diver cert. Complete 3 pool sessions and 2 open water dives and you're eligible. The problem is students don't want that restriction. They want to be able to dive on their own. Not many people will pay for the scuba diver cert, even though many divers won't ever dive outside of a resort setting where there is always a DM or instructor anyway. Kind of ironic.
 
jbichsel:
Just curious, how much time do you allocate, on average, for each pool session? For you PADI folk, there are 5 dives required, and for arguments sake, you have divers that are getting it to an acceptable level (for you), how much time do you find each dive takes?

From my website:

"Our Open Water Diver course is tailored to you. We work a schedule out with you and teach at your speed. In our course you get as much one-on-one time as you need. If we have to add sessions to get you to a comfortable level of mastery, we will at no extra cost (within reasonable limits, of course). The course is personalized to you! We can do this because we limit our class sizes to no more than 4 student divers."

It varies. The 1st 3 pool sessions usually last about 1.5 hours each. The last 2 are about 1/2 that time. This is with 2 students per instructor!
 
shrswnm:
See my experience here:
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=151181
It worked well.
Barbara
I'm happy it worked out for you, but if my dive instructor makes me wait six months to be certified then I'd be really pissed off. Especially when I paid extra for a two day course. If they asked me to maybe take one more class then I'd be okay, but not six months.
 
ppo2_diver:
The 5 dives is a minimum. If I feel someone isn't ready to go on, then we stop and get more practice. It could take 15 pool sessions if needed. I feel that 15-20 hours of total pool time is about average before I'll take someone to OW. That is for an average person who doesn't flip out everytime their mask fogs, takes their reg out, or gets water in the mask. This also does not count the time swimming test, snorkeling, and treading water. Just actual SCUBA time (doing skills and practicing).

I've actually seen instructors take students completely through all confined water in as little as 3 hours. Regardless of how good someone is, I don't think that is enough time.

Right, the 5 pool dives is a minimum. I always tell people that and that the 4 OW dives is a minimum also. I believe that since my name and PADI # will be shown on their card, that I need to be proud of the product I "create".

I have also seen some instructors that complete all the CW dives in one morning or afternoon. I think they should be stripped of credentials. I don't care that there is no defined time requirement, it is irresponsible and careless.
 
Thalassamania:
Pool sessions were two hours each, exclusive of set up and gear wash (we happen to have 22 of them).


There's the rub, please define acceptable and then duck<G>.

I agree, that's why I added the qualifier. That's kind of the same response for "mastery".:wink:
 
Ice9:
Wow! I think my NAUI OW class was only 2 hours in a pool!
I really hope this isn't true--hopefully just an exageration:D

If its even close to true I would suspect, without intending any personal insult to you, that this would be part of the problems you mentioned a while back about equalization problem related to rapid descents.
 
rongoodman:
I certainly don't expect that an OW instructor could have sent me away with good trim and buoyancy, but the least he could do would be to present a good example, and specifically hold it up as something for us to strive for. Having overweighted students practice skills kneeling on the bottom of the pool might be an instructional necessity, but why would the instructor not show us how do do these same skills mid-water, in good position?
Its not an instructional necessity as far as I know and its not the way I teach. Most instructors use the kneeling on the bottom because thats the way they were taught to teach UW skills.

The best way for students to see the example you mention is for the instructor to hover and move about in a horizontal position thoughout the entire course. The students will naturally try to emulate this.
 
The following experience might be of some relevance to this very interesting and informative thread.
I did my Nitrox Certification yesterday. I have been planning to do it for the past one month. In that process, I have been reading up on ScubaBoard, have downloaded tons of material from the internet and have generally been preparing myself. I will describe the entire process of the instruction that I received. I do not want to name the resort or the Certifying Agency.
I called the resort on Wednesday and said I wanted to take the Nitrox Course. I was asked to come the same evening to collect the course material and that I could do the course on Thursday. I collected the material Wednesday evening 6 p.m. Luckily since I had been doing a lot of reading on Nitrox independently I was able to complete the knowledge reviews without even having to read the material.
Thursday morning I was at the resort at 8.45 a.m. My gear was hauled to the boat, I was shown 2 nitrox cylinders, the instructor came to me with a hand-held device, said it was an oxygen analyser, asked me to press one button, showed me a reading of 21.8%, said it was calibrated, asked me to slightly crank open the cylinder valve hold the analyser's mouth (or nose?) against the valve for some time and check the reading.
The forrmula for calculating MOD is stuck on the wall beside the stack of Nitrox cylinders. He gave me a calculator and asked me to use the formula. Then tore off some sticky tape and asked me to write the FO2, MOD and PO2 and my name on the tape and stuck it on the cylinders. We then went out to the boat. This whole process took 5 - 10 minutes. No briefing, no explanation, nothing. We went out and did two dives. There was a divemaster and four more divers ( not students). The instructor followed us around (hopefully keeping a watchful eye for signs of CNS oxygen toxicity). No discussion between the dives, no questions, nothing.
We came back to shore had lunch and then on to the theory portion. I was made to watch a 20 minute video that was essentially a summary of what was available in the course material. The knowledge reviews that I had completed were evaluated by an instructor ( a different one, the instructor who dived with me had gone on an afternoon session. I did not see him briefing this other instructor on any aspects of the two dives that I did). After the review I was given two sheets of papers with questions and multiple choice answers. No briefing on the tables to be used, how to use them, nothing. Fortunately I had given myself a strong base by doing a lot of reading over the past month and was able to answer all the questions correctly. The second instructor came back and checked my answers against an answer evaluation sheet that he had. Tick, Tick, Tick, Tick. He marked two mistakes. One of them I was able to prove that his master evaluation sheet was wrong. The other was a question on CNS clock exposure and I, instead of using this particular training agency's table had used the formula for calculating PO2 and there was a 1% difference in my answer.
This instructor seemed a little confused whe I calculated the PO2 and then showed me a statement at the top of the question paper which basically said that I was suposed to use ONLY the agency's tables for calculations and not my intelligence or knowledge.
I accepted my mistake in trying to use my brains, my answers were scored and CONGRATS I was certified. I paid out the money and got my Nitrox C-Card on the spot and was encouraged to take the Advanced Nitrox Course. When I asked what new stuff I would be taught in the advanced class, I was told that I would learn to use EAN upto 100%. When I said that after all wasn't it only a case of applying Dalton's Law whether EAN22 or EAN100, I received no clear answers. I thanked everybody for the course and for the card and am now a Nitrox Certified Recreational Diver.

Edit:

Oh yes I forgot to mention that I was fortunate enough to be taken around the resort's nitrox blending facility for 5 whole minutes and shown the mixing panel.
 
ac·cept·a·ble
adj.

  1. Worthy of being accepted.
  2. Adequate to satisfy a need, requirement, or standard; satisfactory.
This is a subjective concept in the first meaning and is only objectified by the existence of Unfortunately that standard, when it comes to diving often uses the other term, “mastery.”

mas·ter·y
n. pl. mas·ter·ies

  1. Possession of consummate skill.
  2. The status of master or ruler; control: mastery of the seas.
  3. Full command of a subject of study: Her mastery of economic theory impressed the professors.
How could anyone completeing an OW or AOW program be described as having “mastered” anything? It’s beyond me.
 
Thalassamania:
ac·cept·a·ble
adj.

  1. Worthy of being accepted.
  2. Adequate to satisfy a need, requirement, or standard; satisfactory.
This is a subjective concept in the first meaning and is only objectified by the existence of Unfortunately that standard, when it comes to diving often uses the other term, “mastery.”

mas·ter·y
n. pl. mas·ter·ies

  1. Possession of consummate skill.
  2. The status of master or ruler; control: mastery of the seas.
  3. Full command of a subject of study: Her mastery of economic theory impressed the professors.
How could anyone completeing an OW or AOW program be described as having “mastered” anything? It’s beyond me.

Exactly my point in dealing with PADI the last couple of weeks. I think they have chosen the term "mastery" more as a marketing ploy rather that an attainable goal. Now I think it has been used for so long it has become dogma. In real world experience, I believe more instructors are teaching to an "acceptable" level and PADI interprets it to "mastery".:shakehead
 

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