To those considering an OW class...

[evil_xander]

I agree with the OP and lamont's view how OW/AOW should look like. I wish mine did, at least.

I had the weird luck of choosing the OW course that lasted five dives, no lectures, just catch up with the book, discuss some basics prior to each dive, do the test, and that's it. I got the c-card and felt a bit silly, like there was something missing.

That approach sucks, and can only benefit the diving industry, not the divers.

The positive thing is that afterwards I've read everything on the 'net about diving and several books later (DIR included) I drew my own conclusions about the course and diving. I wanted to go diving so badly that when I couldn't, I just went and read some more about it, trying to apply as much things that made sense to me in theory (I liked the whole Hogarthian idea). I probably would have done the same even if the course lasted 6 months, that's just me.

Luckily, I have a buddy that has plenty of experience and is willing to discuss, show and criticize what I do wrong.

I will probably undertake AOW in the near future, but I don't think it will be a PADI AOW, but some agency that has a more meaningful and longer course.

Patience is a virtue, especially in the world of diving.

 

[jbichsel]

I certainly don't expect that an OW instructor could have sent me away with good trim and buoyancy, but the least he could do would be to present a good example, and specifically hold it up as something for us to strive for. Having overweighted students practice skills kneeling on the bottom of the pool might be an instructional necessity, but why would the instructor not show us how do do these same skills mid-water, in good position?

Having students overweighted kneeling on the bottom is NOT an instructional necessity. It is a crutch, a method that has become the defacto standard. Most likely the instructor did not show you how to do them mid-water because he's complacent, never thought out-of-the-box, that's how he was trained, or he couldn't demonstrate them himself mid-water.

 

[ppo2_diver]

I haven't finished reading all the posts in this thread, so I'm sorry if this is redundant. There is a vicious cycle going on in the diving industry today. The primary reason why we are seeing the OW junk out there is because 95% of the instructors do know know what true master is or looks like. KNEELING ON PLATFORMS IS NOT MASTERY!!! Because the instructors do not know what true mastery is, they pass along their bad habits to their students. Those students who are excited about diving go onto become instructors and this cycle keeps rotating. The agencies and instructors are to blame. If you look at the PADI instructor manual, there is no definition of mastery. The instructors and dive stores who want to hurry up and sell classes and equipment will lower thier definition of mastery to the point it is at now.

Currently the dive industry has been in decline for the past few years. Numbers of certified divers is going down (according to the latest studies I've read from PADI). I say let it go down. That way the people who really love diving will continue to dive and can excel and get better. They can then become instructors and raise the bar for their students. It took me two years of diving to "unlearn" the crap I was taught during my open water to get better. It took getting my ***** handed to me during my DIR-F course to change the way I view teaching. I now will only train divers the way I dive and will show them what mastery is.

 

[loosebits]

By the way, look at ppo2_diver's photo if you want to see another good example of what mastery of buoyancy control looks like.

 

[jbichsel]

Just curious, how much time do you allocate, on average, for each pool session? For you PADI folk, there are 5 dives required, and for arguments sake, you have divers that are getting it to an acceptable level (for you), how much time do you find each dive takes?

 

[divestoclimb]

I agree completely with the problems with short OW courses, but as people have already mentioned there are many advantages to offering these shorter programs (more flexible, gets more people interested, etc.)

Along the lines of a dive learner's permit, consider the cave diving instruction model. This is the NACD method, NSS-CDS used to have a parallel track until recently:

• Cavern: teaches basic techniques but is not an actual cave course at all
• Intro to Cave: allows very restricted cave diving (single tanks, main line only, no deco) Additionally, there are only a few cave systems in Florida are really any good for Intro divers. They're kind of like "sacrificial systems."
• Apprentice Cave: allows doubles and jumps, but expires after 1 year. Intended as a way to allow an intro diver to practice in preparation for:
• Full Cave: unrestricted except for advanced specialties

Why not treat open water in a similar fashion?

• Discover is already similar in scope to Cavern
• The resort course could result in something akin to Intro (possible restrictions: supervised dives only, no diving in the ocean, no diving in environments that are deemed fragile, maybe others) There may be sacrifical resort dives: one or two reefs per tropical destination so these people have somewhere to dive, but most sites would be closed off to these divers to protect the coral.
• the 2+2 course might deserve something like Apprentice: fewer restrictions but it expires if you don't take OW within a year or two.
• Open Water: the equivalent of a university course, or could be taught after the resort or 2+2 course and take less time.

This would give people choices about how to start diving based on their schedules. Each course would be a stepping stone and as such no individual course would be excessively long or expensive. It would not give people unrestricted, permanent certifications until they are ready but each course would still acknowledge the skills that participants have attained. It also would allow people to get out and practice in preparation for the next level in a safe manner. It also does not require that instructors suddenly wake up and strictly enforce skill mastery: there are cave instructors at the different levels who give cards to those who are not ready, but the lower cert levels are so restrictive that it does not make a huge impact. For those who want everything NOW! there's the option of combining two or three courses at once, just like how many people who start cave diving take Cavern and Intro back-to-back on the same trip.

No, this is not quite the same idea as OW -> PPB -> Advanced -> Rescue -> Master. None of those certs expire or have significant, enforceable restrictions (except depth in the case of OW). Also, this idea does not require a change in the OW standards (though I do like lamont's idea), so Advanced and Rescue still have their place as continuing education.

Thoughts?

 

[ppo2_diver]

Just curious, how much time do you allocate, on average, for each pool session? For you PADI folk, there are 5 dives required, and for arguments sake, you have divers that are getting it to an acceptable level (for you), how much time do you find each dive takes?

The 5 dives is a minimum. If I feel someone isn't ready to go on, then we stop and get more practice. It could take 15 pool sessions if needed. I feel that 15-20 hours of total pool time is about average before I'll take someone to OW. That is for an average person who doesn't flip out everytime their mask fogs, takes their reg out, or gets water in the mask. This also does not count the time swimming test, snorkeling, and treading water. Just actual SCUBA time (doing skills and practicing).

I've actually seen instructors take students completely through all confined water in as little as 3 hours. Regardless of how good someone is, I don't think that is enough time.

 

[ppo2_diver]

The cave example has some flaws. For one, there are not that many caves in the US. The ones that are dove the most are controlled/policed by the owners (i.e. Ginnie Springs). There is no one policing the quarries, ponds, lakes, and beaches all across the US. There are some privately owned quarries that can be controlled, but anyone can shore dive off of the beaches in Catalina (just an example). Secondly, how many Intro to Cave divers extend past their training to go further into a cave, do jumps/circuits, take scooters in, etc.? I think there are quite a few who do that. The same thing would be true for OW divers. You would get people who don't want to take the time to get fully certified doing dives that are beyond their training. I know a guy who just had the PADI SCUBA diver card, not the certified OW card, that went to Belize and dove to 140 feet in the Blue Hole. Many of the dive resorts in the Caribbean don't care about full certification. To them, your $150 will feed their family for a month. They don't worry about getting sued because the laws are so lax.

It's obvious that we cannot police our own industry world wide. But we (i.e. us instructors) can determine who is really qualified for OW diving before signing them off. The focus should be more on quality of training. Just my thoughts.

 

[SeaHorseWoman]

See my experience here:
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=151181
It worked well.
Barbara

 

[Thalassamania]

Just curious, how much time do you allocate, on average, for each pool session??

Pool sessions were two hours each, exclusive of set up and gear wash (we happen to have 22 of them).

For you PADI folk, there are 5 dives required, and for arguments sake, you have divers that are getting it to an acceptable level (for you), how much time do you find each dive takes?

There's the rub, please define acceptable and then duck<G>.