To the OW divers I "met" at Jackson Blue last weekend

[eponym]

Sam asks "run a line?" and here is where I am embarrassed to say, I used very poor judgement. I figure, we just spent 3 days and a bunch of dives here, they are probably in the cavern zone, there are already 3 lines to open water, and because we are slow as molasses as newbie cave divers at running lines, my response? "**** that." I know, cringe. But that is what happened, I am not proud, but I think to not mention it is too convenient. Before we entered, we saw them exiting, so we did not have to suffer the possible results of my crappy decision. Making me think though . . . amazing what one is willing to consider when you think one of your buds may be in trouble. Sam expressed it a bit, but really, it was kinda scary, especially for my newbie self

Good on you for those details. Things are different when you're responding to a real incident instead of running course drills, and we can learn from our responses.

Diver0001 started a thread three years ago which I still remember (Theory vs. Practice) about how different, how chaotic, it can get.

-Bryan

 

[tstormdiver]

YES!!! It CAN happen to you! It almost did me. I went into The cave at Vortex a couple of years ago as an OW diver (DM) with no overhead training & almost wound up a statistic. The mistakes made were numerous. 1. (the biggie) going into an overhead environment with no training. 2. not running a guideline to the surface. 3. No gas planning. Going in at dusk- It became dark while my buddy & I were inside. We went to the grate & messed around for a while. When my buddy & I were heading out, it was dark,... very dark. There was no moon, stars, streetlights; no lights visible at all. The black looked like the ceiling of the cave & the sheer walls of the depression looked like the sides of the cave. Even though my buddy & I were actually in open water, we didn't know it & made several trips back into the cave thinking we had gone the wrong way. After several minutes trying to figure things out, my buddy figured it out, & took off to shallower water, silting things out for a minute or 2 & leaving me. He tried to signal me, but his light was dimmer than mine & I couldn't see it. On top of being abandoned, I was also running low on air. I probably swam around for several more minutes before I finally saw his light & made my way towards the surface. When I surfaced I only had maybe 400psi left (Scary!). When I returned home, my instructor (also a cave instructor) had already heard about it & chewed my butt out..... I deserved it, no doubt. He hit the nail on the head when he told me,"going into a cave is a deceptively easy way to die". He asked me if I really wanted to dive the caves. I replied "yes". I will say that the almost tragic adventure sparked my curiosity, but it also shook me up bad enough to know that it was deadly serious. He told me he would train me to do it safely, if I assured him that I would never do anything that stupid & thoughtless again. I decided, at that point, that if I am going to explore these regions I'm going to do it the right way,.... through proper & rigorous training. It took me 2 yrs & 4 attempts to complete my training. My instructor was very tough on me, but he wanted to imbed in me how serious this endeavor was. I was almost a statistic. I knew better than to do the dive, but let myself get talked into it. In the end my poor decision was my own & it nearly cost me dearly. Only by the grace of the Good Lord, did I survive to relay this message. Before you decide to check out a cave, remember IT CAN HAPPEN TO YOU!!!! It almost happened to me....

As cavediver said, "GET TRAINING!"

 

[Frosty]

Are you suggesting he should have "hooked" their reg and then silted the area up?

With zero knowledge of their certification, skills mastery, comfort...,.,.need I go on?

Not at the same time no.
I'm suggesting that if their octi was dangling then they are going to hook them up anyway They will/would have done so without an expert to help them sort themselves out.
From what I'm reading there is one guy of the three thinking he got away with it once so why shouldn't he get away with it again. His mates probably got scared straight but he's the one likely to end up a statistic.
Lesser of the two evils really

Hey I have the "luxury" of living in a country where getting sued for that sort of thing doesn't happen.

 

[soltari675]

Unfortunately there are many vacation dive spots that don't teach the dangers in going into caves at all. When I went to Florida, I had two experiences. One was a great experience. I went with an instructor and 2 dive masters who watched over me pretty well. I never got into areas too enclosed and it gave me a chance to experience a cavern to see if I liked it or not. They never asked me to go anywhere I wasn't comfortable with and I learned a lot from them. (I'll never be a cave diver. Though some caverns seem fun after I take a class or two.) But I was given some instruction to be safe and shown safety procedures for getting out.

The other though guided us to two locations. At one of the locations, the cavern narrowed into a cave area which included those reaper signs someone posted. The dive guide knew exactly what my training level was, OW with only about 25 dives, and consistently tried to get me to go past those signs. In some locations it was very narrow. I refused each time, and he would get impatient and was obviously not happy, like I was ruining the group's dive. He would even go through swim throughs and come out on the sign's side and swim past it like I would not recognize where he was going.

Now I was trained well by my OW instructor and I normally dive with good people. So I was pretty stubborn about not going past those signs. But I imagine there are many OW and new divers who would have trusted that guide because of his dive master status, and because he was suppose to be the guide showing us the fun and safe spots, and would have followed him. I know the other two with me that had about the same experience considered it and I grabbed them and shook my head no. The dive shop when I had called and inquired about the dives were very clear that these sites were fine for OW divers. So in a way, most of the responsibility is with the diver yes, but the guides taking OW divers to these places like it's just another dive are also partly to blame as well.

 

[seaducer]

Ok, well as I said I am just an open water diver

At least I am smart enough not to need rescuing inside a cave...elsewhere though

 

[tstocum]

Not entirely true, especially where I ran my line this weekend. The left side of the csvern will push you into a small area where the bottom and ceiling meet, not out of the cavern. Had the OW divers followed my line, they would have lost sight of the opening for several dozen feet and gotten pushed into that area.

Sorry, I know nothing of cave diving and am a little confused by your statement. Are you saying there is a current in this cave that would or could have pushed them into the area where the bottom and ceiling meet?

Thanks.

 

[Cave Diver]

Sam asks "run a line?" and here is where I am embarrassed to say, I used very poor judgement. I figure, we just spent 3 days and a bunch of dives here, they are probably in the cavern zone, there are already 3 lines to open water, and because we are slow as molasses as newbie cave divers at running lines, my response? "**** that." I know, cringe. But that is what happened, I am not proud, but I think to not mention it is too convenient.

Since this discussion has opened up somewhat I'm going to provide another "learning moment" for you.

There are other options you could have considered besides running your own line. Obviously we knew that there were several lines still in place and not all those teams were currently in the water, so it was a pretty safe assumption that they would be there on our way out.

Earlier in the weekend, we had also discussed a line sharing protocol. Both of our groups elected to run our own lines in during our dives, but at one point we talked about just sharing a single line by having one team run it and both teams drop cookies where it tied into the gold line.

I wouldn't normally encourage dropping a cookie on another teams line without discussing it with them first. But in a situation like this, if you were in doubt about who was still in the cave and wanted to ensure the reel didn't get pulled that would have been another way to address the issue.

Rob, it was good meeting you and Kevin both! I really thought it was cool how you did the video debriefing with your student so they could see any issues for themselves.

 

[ianr33]

I went with an instructor and 2 dive masters who watched over me pretty well.

But I imagine there are many OW and new divers who would have trusted that guide because of his dive master status,

Being a Divemaster means NOTHING when it comes to caves.

Nobody has mentioned this yet in this thread. Worth watching.
http://vimeo.com/1827810

[vimeo]1827810[/vimeo]

 

[kombiguy]

Being a Divemaster means NOTHING when it comes to caves.

Nobody has mentioned this yet in this thread. Worth watching.
A Deceptively Easy Way to Die on Vimeo

[vimeo]1827810[/vimeo]

OK, I admit it. Even just watching cave diving, whether by idiots or by skilled people, makes my heart rate increase. Cave divers have incredible amounts of intestinal fortitude. I can't see how anyone without training can even think of going into a cave!

 

[VooDooGasMan]

Actually, Divemasters were and are still cavedivers, with all the cert agency's out there it just a class that teaches how to become an OWI.

In europe I was taken into many caves with Divemasters, back then it is was to say cave experience Divemasters. Any one can be a cave diver with experience. In the GreatLakes Divemasters would take you in ships, they had wreck experience.


There is a way to help, from inexperience cave divers, too have not dove a cave in awhile.
OK, My Take is the signs that are posted in the cenotes caves at entrance, even underwater, not just warning, or DANGER, that is a welcome to some to see what it is about.

Like in the cenotes, have the signs read the special gear they need to enter this cave even with cartoon drawn pics, and let it be aware that without you will die.

The scull and crossbone pic is the meaning this is what you find without proper cave gear.

As Divers we know we all react differently underwater, so a little more time reading a sign couldn't hurt.

Ok so I was out in the shipping lanes yesterday, there is a wall that starts at 86 feet goes to 560' or so, there is huge current here. I told the line fisherman my path, as I have a Inflatable boat that I hang on to, after a dive and told them on there sonars where the lings where, they thanked and said, like how you dive flag is presented, and went on how some charter boats get all huffy, and they tell him put a dive flag up, charter captian goes up top to see the wind wrapped alpha flag around diver flag and just a pole.

Signs can be effective and mean something, when present in a fashion that are attracted to understand.

It's unfortunate cave diver, sam, drydive, lost out on there own dive to help these guys, its never a win when in this situation, yet it is an experience of a cave dive that ended safely.



Happy Diving