theduckguru
Contributor
Scuba training is industry based training where the student is trained by a credentialed instructor and earns a completion certificate (dive card). No tip is warranted.
Tipping
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Scuba training is industry based training where the student is trained by a credentialed instructor and earns a completion certificate (dive card). No tip is warranted.
I realize all of the passionate responses are good for the posters based on their own personal experiences... and that's all I was looking for. We all, apparently, see things from our own perspective regarding how the instructors and DM's are to be viewed (and, perhaps, valued).
Personally, I recognize that PADI is getting money for the course they require for their certification as the agency. I recognize that the dive shop owner is making a few pennies as well. I have no idea what the instructor is getting paid (if anything... and that matters NOT to me in this regard). I recognize that the DM's are likely to be volunteers "for the love of the sport."
Anyway... here's what happened:
FIRST: my son and I are now certified EFR and Rescue Divers. We are both quite proud of our accomplishments. And while we certainly recognize that we are in no position to go out and get giant red "S"'s tattoo'd on our chests (Superman reference), we do feel that the certification gives us a small bit of peace-of-mind as we find more ways we can give back in this broken world in which we live. If we can help... we're happy to help in the best way we know how.
SECOND: our instructor and the two DM's were absolutely fabulous. We had not met any of them before, and they were great at putting us at ease while giving us very serious instruction and demonstration. We learned a lot from them over the course of 4 days.
THIRD: the quarry was dank and disgusting (though much warmer than I was anticipating). Viz was as close to ZERO as I've encountered. Everything was done by "feel." Air temp was above 90, and we were out there for about 12 hours over 2 days. These guys worked hard (and I'm sure some would say, "That's what they were there for.").
FOURTH: I offered a small gratuity to each of the DM's... Neither of them wanted to accept it (genuinely... not an act). They both looked absolutely stunned that I was even offering them something. Nevertheless, I put it this way, "You are welcome to keep this for yourself and get yourself a nice dinner or some bottles of wine to take home to enjoy with your better halves... or you are welcome to make a donation to DAN or some appropriate marine organization." They both accepted it, but quite half-hearted.
FIFTH: I offered a somewhat larger (but still small) gratuity to the instructor... who absolutely, flat-out, no-questions-asked refused to accept it.
FINALLY: My son and I appreciated VERY MUCH the gentle approach to teaching an important subject. This wasn't just learning how to improve our own skills for the sake of being better divers (though there is certainly an element to that). This was learning skills that could help us help others. From where I come from... there are few things more important than that. We did what we felt was right, given the situation... which, after all, is the first thing we learned in this Rescue course.
We look forward to taking our O2 specialty course in a few weeks... on our way to Master Divers, hopefully within the year.
Jeff
Personally, I recognize that PADI is getting money for the course they require for their certification as the agency. I recognize that the dive shop owner is making a few pennies as well. I have no idea what the instructor is getting paid (if anything... and that matters NOT to me in this regard). I recognize that the DM's are likely to be volunteers "for the love of the sport."
Anyway... here's what happened:
FIRST: my son and I are now certified EFR and Rescue Divers. We are both quite proud of our accomplishments. And while we certainly recognize that we are in no position to go out and get giant red "S"'s tattoo'd on our chests (Superman reference), we do feel that the certification gives us a small bit of peace-of-mind as we find more ways we can give back in this broken world in which we live. If we can help... we're happy to help in the best way we know how.
SECOND: our instructor and the two DM's were absolutely fabulous. We had not met any of them before, and they were great at putting us at ease while giving us very serious instruction and demonstration. We learned a lot from them over the course of 4 days.
THIRD: the quarry was dank and disgusting (though much warmer than I was anticipating). Viz was as close to ZERO as I've encountered. Everything was done by "feel." Air temp was above 90, and we were out there for about 12 hours over 2 days. These guys worked hard (and I'm sure some would say, "That's what they were there for.").
FOURTH: I offered a small gratuity to each of the DM's... Neither of them wanted to accept it (genuinely... not an act). They both looked absolutely stunned that I was even offering them something. Nevertheless, I put it this way, "You are welcome to keep this for yourself and get yourself a nice dinner or some bottles of wine to take home to enjoy with your better halves... or you are welcome to make a donation to DAN or some appropriate marine organization." They both accepted it, but quite half-hearted.
FIFTH: I offered a somewhat larger (but still small) gratuity to the instructor... who absolutely, flat-out, no-questions-asked refused to accept it.
FINALLY: My son and I appreciated VERY MUCH the gentle approach to teaching an important subject. This wasn't just learning how to improve our own skills for the sake of being better divers (though there is certainly an element to that). This was learning skills that could help us help others. From where I come from... there are few things more important than that. We did what we felt was right, given the situation... which, after all, is the first thing we learned in this Rescue course.
We look forward to taking our O2 specialty course in a few weeks... on our way to Master Divers, hopefully within the year.
Jeff
ing
---------- Post added July 27th, 2014 at 08:47 PM ----------
so you say being the instructor skipped their lunch while the class broke for a lunch break so that he/she can spend time with a student that is failing does not deserve a tip..the student paid for a group class, not a 1 to 1 session. I informed the student to tip the instructor for their effort to assist them in their class. The instructor spent over 1 hour of their time to help this person so that the student could finish the class on time so that she could go on her caribbean trip in a few days. Instructor did not have to go through this extra effort. Instructor was not on the clock to be paid for this extra effort. This student did not reward with a tip.. I would not make it any easier for her from now on. No extra considerations, only standard level of service,just like every other student. Can't demonstrate mastery,not my problem. Come back another time in a group class and try again. Leaving soon on a trip and can not make the next date for a group class? Not our problem. Want extra time/attention 1 to 1 time during the week so as to be able to dive on their vacation..Sure we can do it. Costs $140 for a 2 hour private session. Why should I go out of my way and save this unappreciative person time and make it easier for them . Student can drive back to facility during the week and schedule private time with an instructor and now pay for private attention.Class normally ends at 4 pm..that is what they paid for in a group setting.Due to this problem student we did not leave until 6pm. Not only she inconvenienced the instructor but the entire class due to extra attention she needed ..AND you say instructor does not deserve a tip!
---------- Post added July 27th, 2014 at 08:47 PM ----------
so spending extra time,giving a student extra attention is something that does not deserve a tip..I now have to tell instructors here not to give any extra attention to anyone who may need it. Just do the standard great job they have always done.Do not go out of your way for problem students in a group setting.Just treat student in "standard way". Just inform the student that if they do not meet objectives in the group class that they can come back in 2 weeks during the next group class or they have to pay for private 1 to 1 course assistance.
theduckguru
Contributor
I recently attended a class to teach me how to safely ride a motorcycle, there were students who did not meet the standards and flunked. The instructors did not offer to work through lunch with those failing and no one expected them to. Also, the OP of this thread did not ID himself as a problem student.
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Mustard Dave
Contributor
I don't think anybody has tried to suggest that diving instructors are on par with professors - they are saying (and this is a view I agree with) when paying for training, the costs should be up front and anything paid as a 'little bit extra' is unethical in a situation where somebody is assessing your competence and deciding whether to award certification.
My local dive school uses part time instructors. On their books, they have a couple who both work in IT (one is a director of a software company and her husband is a senior designer for a multinational IT company) and the head if compliance and risk at a large university. Personally I have never needed additional tuition, but I have seen them on many occasions put in extra time to get somebody through the course. I have no idea what they are paid, but from looking at what the courses cost, it cannot be much more than minimum wage. When you factor in the extra time they spend with students, and the work they do in the background - I bet it isn't even that.
When I did my CCR course, my instructor was a full time diving instructor. He also runs dive trips etc. and does some commercial diving, but the point is his sole means of income is from diving. On the course enrolment forms, there was a comment clearly stating I was paying for training - not a certification, and if I did not meet the required standards the certification would be withheld and any additional training would have to be paid for.
Out of the two training providers, I am in no doubt the first lot do it more as a hobby. I very much doubt they need the money and I doubt they would even consider accepting a tip. The second is a full time diving professional and there is no ambiguity about cost - the price he states is the price you pay.
DMs at my local school are unpaid. I am not a DM, but I have helped out on numerous occasions - lifeguard cover at the pool, safety diver on courses, taking out new OW divers who need to build up their experience. I do not expect payment as I do not need the money. My weekday job pays the bills and funds my diving, but it is in my interest as a member of a club and diving community to get people interested in the sport. When they have built up the experience to be able to do the same, many do and everyone's a winner.
The trouble with the diver training industry is there are too many people prepared to work for nothing, but at the same time, too many people trying to cash in. I would prefer to see the community support itself by helping each other and passing on skills without obligation. However, there is a market for dive tourism and for those that want a crash course, and therefore a need for paid staff, but the guilt should not be passed onto customers if they are not charging enough for their services or working for an employer that does not pay them properly.
Tigerman
Contributor
Why do you have to tell them anything of the sort? They should know what the requirements of the job is. Its not your job to tell them wether or not to spend their spare time doing anything unless you're the one paying them to do so. Its definetly NOT your job to put the responsibility of paying employees onto anyone but the employer...
In this facility instructors are paid better than what other LDS may pay in the area. What I have written is that the instructor made an extra effort to accommodate a student who needed extra attention so that she can finish the course and go on her vacation,not have to schedule another date for additional time to catch up.Everyone else in the class were advancing thru the course on schedule. Even after I advised the student that the instructor deserves a tip because otherwise she would of had to either schedule a private 2 hour session at a cost of $140 or attend the next scheduled group class at no cost in 1 week, she agreed to reward the instructor. Any other schedule would have meant the student may miss opportunity to do training dives on their vacation.This student is not poor , it's not like she is a struggling college student. Student drove to class in a high end vehicle, going on vacation to a high end resort. She then left without leaving a gratuity, after agreeing to do so! When I teach a class and there is a problem student I attempt to bring student up to speed,but do not spend more than a few minutes to do so in a group class setting. If they don't "get it" in the group class I offer a spot to them in the next scheduled group class at no cost OR a private session at a cost to them. People who do not appreciate any extra effort extended to them, people who think they are entitled, I have no time for.
---------- Post added July 28th, 2014 at 07:40 AM ----------
---------- Post added July 28th, 2014 at 07:40 AM ----------
I was using something called sarcasm. They know requirement of job. As to using their spare time to assist an unappreciative student, it still cost the facility pool time to do so.
Tigerman
Contributor
Ok, Ill bite and adress your specific example, however you're not going to like what I have to say about it..
First off, why should anyones level of income decide what they tip? Is a service provided to someone rich automatically worth more than the same service provided to someone with less money?
Second, she might have "agreed" with you just to get you off her back. Infact a lot of people don't like being TOLD to tip and she might quite well have decided at that point that she wouldn't give anyone a tip, simply becaused it was asked for.
And here's the part you're REALLY not going to like and probably start a lengthy discussion that I cant be assed to partake over.
As an instructor you are in a position to decide wether or not someone earns a qualification. Making sure someone passes because they tipped you while "throwing people who didn't under the bus" could be considered bribery...
socaljohn
Contributor
Bought my AOL instructor breakfast after last required dive. He was pretty happy about that.
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